Fencing help, please

[rolanni]

What's the proper name of the move where one swordsperson engages their opponents blade, twists it and follows the thrust of said blade back to the opponent, hopefully scoring a hit?

Apologies for the not-very-coherent description; I can see the dern move in my head. Now if I could only knock what I see out one ear and paste it into my word processor...

Thanks in advance...

Comments

[queenmaggie.livejournal.com]

Not any type of expert, but I believe the term you're looking for is "riposte"

[ramblin-phyl.livejournal.com]

Fencer #1 makes a direct attack. Fencer #2 binds the blade in a circular parry and riposte which scores a point if the tip of the blade hits the target area. This is in foil--epee and saber have different rules. The target area in foil is the torso, any area covered by the padded jacket except the arms and the mask/bib of the mask area.

If using electric equipment a buzzer will sound or a light go off to signal the point. If fighting dry, the referee will recount the action and call the point sufficient if the tip of the foil makes full contact and there is a slight bend in the blade.

Hope that helps.

Need anything else?

Phyl who will soon be assistant coach to 2 classes at community centers.

[queenmaggie.livejournal.com]

http://www.synec-doc.be/escrime/dico/engl.htm
several other terms seem to perhaps be closer to what you mean: 'envelope' or perhaps "counter riposte"

[victorthecook.livejournal.com]

That was lovely. Now _I_ can see it.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Beautiful. Thank you.


Phyl who will soon be assistant coach to 2 classes at community centers

Go, you!

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

She oughta be a writer...

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Ooh! Good resource; thank you! *makes bookmark*

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

And... that's all I was going to say, but better. :)

[connerybeagle.livejournal.com]

Binding the blade.

BAWH!

[erink.livejournal.com]

Right, it's a bind or possibly a pres de fer attack (though a press in modern practice can be indistinguishable from a beat - you take the opponent's blade but not necessarily with a twisting or leverage-y motion, then finish your attack somehow). But however you spell pres de fer, it sounds cool.

Not sure what your fencing background is, or what period you mean - a mutual friend referred me to this page - but I've never heard "envelope" used in modern olympic style fencing. Also, a riposte is any attack that immediately follows a defense (parry), but a bind can be an attack. The difference is what your opponent is doing when you take her blade. If she's just standing there, and you bind her blade and finish, it's your attack.

Hmm, now that I think of it, there was some weird trend to call any blade contact defensive last time I was fencing (about 3 years ago), but that's obviously just wrong...I know when I'm attacking!

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Right, it's a bind or possibly a pres de fer attack (though a press in modern practice can be indistinguishable from a beat - you take the opponent's blade but not necessarily with a twisting or leverage-y motion, then finish your attack somehow).

Hmmm...

Not sure what your fencing background is, or what period you mean - a mutual friend referred me to this page - but I've never heard "envelope" used in modern olympic style fencing. Also, a riposte is any attack that immediately follows a defense (parry), but a bind can be an attack. The difference is what your opponent is doing when you take her blade. If she's just standing there, and you bind her blade and finish, it's your attack.

I have no fencing background (well, Errol Flynn movies...), but my character has had actual this-is-for-real weapons training, including sword, in her distant past. She has been attacked by a ferocious opponent with a touching belief that a lunging attack is the best answer to any problem. Our Heroine needs to ...bind...? her opponent's weapon and follow through to draw blood. And since she has had training, and is describing the action, she of course will know and use the official technical words for what she's doing.

[scaleslea.livejournal.com]

Hi. ::waves::

I didn't know you read the Liaden books.

Doc

[kd5mdk.livejournal.com]

I'm a referee, and referees use different terms than coaches. Specifically, coaching terms are more likely to be French or Italian, and they're much more specific.

As a referee, there's two ways of looking at it.
If the attack was stopped by her blade in a parry, then her attack is a riposte. The parry is the defensive movement of the blade that prevents the attacker's attack from arriving. The riposte is the attack that follows a successful parry.

If the riposte binds the opponent's blade to prevent them taking control, it is generally referred to as "in opposition", if the referee bothers describing it.

So, in this situation, I'd say "Attack is parried, riposte in opposition arrives."

There's another way it might happen. In fencing these days, distance has become even more important than bladework, and the focus has shifted, especially in sabre, to making your opponent fall short. In this case, his attack will be "Attack, no", and then she executes a "prise de fer" (seize the blade) to control his blade until her touch.

Is this fencing or swordfighting? ?(i.e., is somebody judging this, or are they out to kill?)

[kd5mdk.livejournal.com]

I've never heard "envelope" either.

I'd call an attack with bind a "prise de fer" myself, but that's because there's a tradition of calling it a prise, and not a bind, among referees, and it's harder to get in trouble the less specific you are.

I'd call your second paragraph's last sentence "presentation, prise de fer, touch".

As for defensive vs offensive, I see the calls going pretty evenly, especially with interpretations like "you cannot parry a beat". Also, what things look like from the side is different from the ends, and finally, calling something a parry is the easiest way to clarify it gives priority, whereas someone might argue a beat.

[kd5mdk.livejournal.com]

The riposte is the attack that follows a parry, so it needs a parry to come first (many a referee has run aground saying "Attack no, riposte" and being asked "Where was the parry?").

[kd5mdk.livejournal.com]

Counter riposte is the attack that follows the successful parry of a riposte (which follows the successful parry of the original attack). Not what our valiant heroine wants to happen here.

[erink.livejournal.com]

Okay, so you're talking real sword fighting and don't necessarily care what referees think. Sounds like fun!

I'm a great fan of a lunge attack, but it has to be a good lunge (quick, balanced, recoverable). A standard response to a lunge is to step back (also called "retreat" or "give ground") until your opponent has committed to the lunge, then take the blade and ripposte. The bind is optional, but it's how I'd feel safest in a real fight. She will likely have to step in or lunge herself to hit, unless she's going for the sword arm. Of course, if you've studied fighting in general you likely know that - if you can hit your opponent and she can't hit you, either because she has a spear and you have a sword, or because she's overextended somehow, this is a good thing. There are pictures of special infighting postures for fencing/rapier, but they're probably way too hard to describe. The two standard approaches I can think of are to draw your arm back (elbow behind chest and forearm horizontal) or the prime (elbow above your head, wrist angling toward the target). I'm not sure the prime position has much use as a ripposte in street fighting (you might need it as a parry).

I was looking for a picture of a rapier prime position and found this - it's similar, and the parent page seems like a very cool site! http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/MS39564/MS39564.htm

[kd5mdk.livejournal.com]

Prime seems unlikely to be a good parry position, especially with a heavier sword. Specifically, I don't see a clear line to riposte in opposition from it, and it's relatively slow. I'd recommend parry 4 if they're making a straight high attack, or circle 6 if your blade is light enough. If they're doing a lower attack, circle 2 makes a good position to riposte in opposition.

Is the goal to kill them or draw first blood? Are the blades edged or point only?