Editing Liad, a discursion
Sunday, January 24th, 2010 11:31 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rolanniBack, oh. . .twenty years or so ago, I was employed as a copy editor on night-side news at the local newspaper. My job was to fact-check articles submitted by the reporters; put those articles into house style; rearrange them, if necessary; and write a headline. House style at that point was the Associated Press Stylebook and Libel Manual.
Newspaper work is the Very Basic Level of copy editing. The text has to be punctuated and capitalized consistently according to the manual, the spelling has to be right, the sentences have to be straightforward, the quoted facts have to be correct, the headline has to be unambiguous, and all of this is subservient to having the paper up and off the floor at midnight.
Because newspapers are copy edited story-by-story, this is a precise, but relatively simple operation -- especially when compared to copy editing something as complex as a novel; and trebly so, when the novel in question is part of an on-going series.
Ideally, an on-going series will have one copy editor who has worked with it from Book the First, and begun compiling her bible then. (If the case of the Liaden Universe®, the copy editor's bible would now be into many volumes.) Most of us? Don't get that lucky.
In the case of the Liaden books. . .
I remember our editor at Del Rey calling us up to yell at us for having turned in such a bad manuscript, that had required so much work from the copy editor, and adjuring us to Do Better with our next book. Since she already had the next book on her desk, that wasn't going to happen, but I did go through our copy of the manuscript and the mass market of Agent of Change when it arrived, and tried to derive house style.
I did the same thing when Conflict of Honors came out, only to find that? Some of the changes that had been made "to style," so I thought, in Agent either didn't get changed, or were "fixed" in another way for Conflict. I mentioned this to our editor, whose response was, "That's not how it's supposed to work."
Yeah, guess not.
We did one more book with Del Rey. I confess that I didn't check house style on it, and our editor didn't mention anything about how much work the manuscript had required when listing our other failings, so maybe we'd finally gotten the hang of it.
The next book we saw published was Plan B, with Meisha Merlin, which was, I'm pretty sure, copy edited. We never saw an edit letter, or a copy edited script, or any queries, but there had clearly been somebody riding herd on the sentences. Later books with Meisha Merlin certainly were not copy edited, and in the case of I Dare, even the authors' corrections were ignored.
Embiid, though, did copy edit the manuscripts; it was done by one person who was familiar with the series -- who was in fact a fan of the series -- (and who, in passing, remarked on how clean the manuscripts were in general (sigh)), so in terms of having been edited, the ebooks through Crystal Dragon have had the most consistent hand, though they (like Meisha Merlin) accepted the three Del Rey books as-was, because they had already been copy edited.
All of which is in service of explaining: (1)why there is no Liaden Universe® bible, and (2) why reading the previous books (even if she had time, which really, she doesn't) isn't going to help a copy editor brand-new to the series derive Rules.
Making matters worse is the fact that we are idiosyncratic writers. It matters to me how things look on a page, as those who have heard my How I Name Characters riff will recall. I do try to limit my use of Random Capitals in manuscript, and to clean up those that inevitably sneak through, once the Heat of Creation has passed off. Writers, though, are notoriously bad at cleaning up their own stuff. Which is why, thank ghod, we have copy editors.
A copy editor's first care is consistency. Therefore, a request for a Rule might be: Is it house or House?
The answer -- it's both -- isn't immediately useful, though in the Liaden Universe® it happens to be true: "house" a structure in which people live; "House" the clan entire; the people who make up the family.
"Is it dragon or Dragon?" yields a similar "it depends" answer, and the copy editor might soon come to suspect that the authors are toying with her.
The copy editor's other care is clarity. The text must be as accessible as possible to as many people as possible. There is, therefore, a wish to have every person and place properly named when they first come on-screen, and every funny thing -- like "cantra" -- explained immediately.
Clarity is a good thing. However, there can be too much of a good thing, so the tension between the copy editor and the authors is: How much clarity is too much? and, How smart do you think your readers are?
Apparently, we expect a lot from our readers. We expect that they, like we, can figure things out from context. We expect that they, like we, have read in a variety of genres, and from a variety of authors, including works in translation. We expect that our readers own dictionaries, and that they're not afraid to use them. We expect, in short, that our readers like to read, and, more, that they like words.
Since we're only writing space opera; it's possible that we're 'way too big for our britches, here, but we were long ago committed to the course.
So -- a slightly fuller explanation of the tension created by the edit letter -- necessary tension, which, if we managed to explain ourselves correctly, should be the basis, at last for a Liaden bible, and more consistently edited books.
And now, back to the couch!
...as you can see, my helpers are still on the case:
Newspaper work is the Very Basic Level of copy editing. The text has to be punctuated and capitalized consistently according to the manual, the spelling has to be right, the sentences have to be straightforward, the quoted facts have to be correct, the headline has to be unambiguous, and all of this is subservient to having the paper up and off the floor at midnight.
Because newspapers are copy edited story-by-story, this is a precise, but relatively simple operation -- especially when compared to copy editing something as complex as a novel; and trebly so, when the novel in question is part of an on-going series.
Ideally, an on-going series will have one copy editor who has worked with it from Book the First, and begun compiling her bible then. (If the case of the Liaden Universe®, the copy editor's bible would now be into many volumes.) Most of us? Don't get that lucky.
In the case of the Liaden books. . .
I remember our editor at Del Rey calling us up to yell at us for having turned in such a bad manuscript, that had required so much work from the copy editor, and adjuring us to Do Better with our next book. Since she already had the next book on her desk, that wasn't going to happen, but I did go through our copy of the manuscript and the mass market of Agent of Change when it arrived, and tried to derive house style.
I did the same thing when Conflict of Honors came out, only to find that? Some of the changes that had been made "to style," so I thought, in Agent either didn't get changed, or were "fixed" in another way for Conflict. I mentioned this to our editor, whose response was, "That's not how it's supposed to work."
Yeah, guess not.
We did one more book with Del Rey. I confess that I didn't check house style on it, and our editor didn't mention anything about how much work the manuscript had required when listing our other failings, so maybe we'd finally gotten the hang of it.
The next book we saw published was Plan B, with Meisha Merlin, which was, I'm pretty sure, copy edited. We never saw an edit letter, or a copy edited script, or any queries, but there had clearly been somebody riding herd on the sentences. Later books with Meisha Merlin certainly were not copy edited, and in the case of I Dare, even the authors' corrections were ignored.
Embiid, though, did copy edit the manuscripts; it was done by one person who was familiar with the series -- who was in fact a fan of the series -- (and who, in passing, remarked on how clean the manuscripts were in general (sigh)), so in terms of having been edited, the ebooks through Crystal Dragon have had the most consistent hand, though they (like Meisha Merlin) accepted the three Del Rey books as-was, because they had already been copy edited.
All of which is in service of explaining: (1)why there is no Liaden Universe® bible, and (2) why reading the previous books (even if she had time, which really, she doesn't) isn't going to help a copy editor brand-new to the series derive Rules.
Making matters worse is the fact that we are idiosyncratic writers. It matters to me how things look on a page, as those who have heard my How I Name Characters riff will recall. I do try to limit my use of Random Capitals in manuscript, and to clean up those that inevitably sneak through, once the Heat of Creation has passed off. Writers, though, are notoriously bad at cleaning up their own stuff. Which is why, thank ghod, we have copy editors.
A copy editor's first care is consistency. Therefore, a request for a Rule might be: Is it house or House?
The answer -- it's both -- isn't immediately useful, though in the Liaden Universe® it happens to be true: "house" a structure in which people live; "House" the clan entire; the people who make up the family.
"Is it dragon or Dragon?" yields a similar "it depends" answer, and the copy editor might soon come to suspect that the authors are toying with her.
The copy editor's other care is clarity. The text must be as accessible as possible to as many people as possible. There is, therefore, a wish to have every person and place properly named when they first come on-screen, and every funny thing -- like "cantra" -- explained immediately.
Clarity is a good thing. However, there can be too much of a good thing, so the tension between the copy editor and the authors is: How much clarity is too much? and, How smart do you think your readers are?
Apparently, we expect a lot from our readers. We expect that they, like we, can figure things out from context. We expect that they, like we, have read in a variety of genres, and from a variety of authors, including works in translation. We expect that our readers own dictionaries, and that they're not afraid to use them. We expect, in short, that our readers like to read, and, more, that they like words.
Since we're only writing space opera; it's possible that we're 'way too big for our britches, here, but we were long ago committed to the course.
So -- a slightly fuller explanation of the tension created by the edit letter -- necessary tension, which, if we managed to explain ourselves correctly, should be the basis, at last for a Liaden bible, and more consistently edited books.
And now, back to the couch!
...as you can see, my helpers are still on the case:
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Bible and the working wiki
Date: 2010-01-24 04:58 pm (UTC)I remember you mentioning working up a wiki page for one of the previous works or might have even been for Mouse & Dragon. Would giving the copy editor access to the working wiki help? That would to my mind be at least the starting place for the bible for the whose who of the universe.
Another thought comes to mind. Knowing that the copy editor has little time for delving into all the back story. Would sampling the chap books help?
Re: Bible and the working wiki
Date: 2010-01-24 05:06 pm (UTC)Re: Bible and the working wiki
Date: 2010-01-24 05:16 pm (UTC)And. . .yeah, I'd have to agree with
no subject
Date: 2010-01-24 06:22 pm (UTC)Editor should be familiar with How to Read SF/Fantasy. Really.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-24 06:28 pm (UTC)But then I have been reading F/SF since grammar school, so I suppose I have more practice at that sort of interpolation than do some copy editors.
Although I would have thought copy editing genre fiction would be a job for a specialist familiar with the genre.
Re: Bible and the working wiki
Date: 2010-01-24 06:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-24 06:59 pm (UTC)YES!
On a related note, are there common clarifications the copy editor (or readers) frequently ask?
One option might be to generally add a simple 2 or so page glossary/dictionary at the end of each book that lists the most common questions, units of measure (Cantra, time, etc). It should not be a list of characters, an order of battle, etc, but those things that offer clarity without requiring the authors to spend significant time figuring out how to magically insert it into the story to offer similar clarity.
- Jacques
no subject
Date: 2010-01-24 07:17 pm (UTC)I also believe that familiarity with the Liaden universe, whether novel or chapbook, would be of great assistance to an editor. Yes, your "style" has varied from story to story, but I didn't consider that to be a negative, as you were consistant with your point-of-view character.
It would especially help if your copy editor is a fan, had followed your online drafts of Fledgling and Saltation, and followed the online discussions of each chapter.
Maybe a volunteer pre-copy editor "copy editor"? I don't think you'd lack for offers.
Brom
no subject
Date: 2010-01-24 07:20 pm (UTC)Brom
Yes, you DO expect a lot of your readers
Date: 2010-01-24 07:26 pm (UTC)I ask you, what would they (the copy editors) do with older
literature such as Dickens', Heyer's, or Shakespeare's works?
OK, some of them have legitimate reasons to be tough to get into -
but I would argue, so does the Liaden/Terran world! You have
2+ languages and 2+ cultures going on, all of which are tangential
to our current culture.
I found Flowers for Algernon a little tough going at first but
hey, it had a point. If anyone out there has read Precious, they
know it falls into a similar category. The sentences and the
spellings are chosen for a reason, like poetry.
Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now - to me it's the difference
between style and Style.
Lauretta@ConstelaltionBooks
PS You're not going to get that rocking chair back any time soon.
My dog does the same with my bedroom wing chair...the only time
I get to sit in it is if he's in my lap. I guess I qualify as the
towel/cushion in that case.
What of Theo's copyeds?
Date: 2010-01-24 07:28 pm (UTC)Still. Thanks for the copyed-by-house history breakdown. (Looks like MM lacked not only copyeditting at the ms stage, but also proofreading at the galley/page proof stage.)
oof.
Re: What of Theo's copyeds?
Date: 2010-01-24 07:38 pm (UTC)I'm not clear if there's a new copy editor on this project, or if the problem is that Mouse and Dragon is set on Liad, told from the viewpoint of Liadens, without
comic reliefa naive Terran to whom things must be explained.Or, yanno -- both.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-24 07:46 pm (UTC)What the heck is a cantra? seems to be a copy editor favorite across the last couple of books. Readers think of all kinds of questions...
One option might be to generally add a simple 2 or so page glossary/dictionary at the end of each book that lists the most common questions, units of measure
When last we saw this book, it had a glossary. It also has clarifying quotations at the beginning of each chapter, as did Local Custom and Scout's Progress, to give readers a little help over the trickiest bits.
Re: Bible and the working wiki
Date: 2010-01-24 07:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-24 07:56 pm (UTC)*sends tea, sympathy, and cookies*
no subject
Date: 2010-01-24 08:19 pm (UTC)... my latest reading was of Partners in Necessity and Plan B which, obviously were older MM publications, neither of which had said handy references (nor in the recent ACE version of Agent of Change), but obviously in Crystal Soldier, etc... sorry about not checking better before posting something you evidently already do though!
And I do agree with Brom's comment above, it is enjoyable to read and figure things out from the context and progress of the story!!
- Jacques
But Pilot's Choice was like that!
Date: 2010-01-24 09:25 pm (UTC)Hmn.
I'm currently perusing Soho Press' 2010 sampler and much of this
has language/sentence structure/culture differences. I was Very
Puzzled but one section that I thought was a regimental dinner
under Victoria's Reign, only to discover it was under Elizabeth
II's Reign. Disconcerting.
I guess the issue is the copy editor has to be the arbiter of all
things internally consistent - and this editor is not yet submerged
in the world to be edited, huh?
Where's the Learning Module when you need it? :)
Lauretta
Re: What of Theo's copyeds?
Date: 2010-01-24 09:43 pm (UTC)(I want to see a video course on hand-talk, all of the varieties. Details of how things are 'said'. I don't have a clear mental picture of what the hands are doing in the parts which are 'translated' from hand-talk. But I suspect that this is one of many things in fictuional universes which I'll just have to accept, because no one -- least of all the authors -- have time to produce such a thing...)
As far as cantra were concerned, it was obvious that it meant 'money', and quite a lot of it. I didn't need to have an explanation of how many Terran bits there are to a cantra until it because relevant in the stories, at which point it was explained in context. Just as I don't need to know exactly how much a solidus was worth in ancient Rome if I'm reading a novel set then -- or how much a pound or shilling was worth in England in 1400 -- because the story should make it clear (and yours do) when it's needed in context. Nothing to do with knowing the genre, this is Comprehension 101 (or in British terms pre O-level/GCSE), we would have failed any comprehension test at school if we hadn't picked that sort of thing up.
Well it was just a thought
Date: 2010-01-25 12:04 am (UTC)It was just a thought. Maybe it wasn't a good one but :) anything we can do to help the copy editor get their job done well... and faster is the goal, right? Impatiently awaits the yule chap book for his next Liaden fix...
rfalken
no subject
Date: 2010-01-25 12:21 am (UTC)*pulls book off shelf*
Oh, right. That was our Weird Word List, that we made for the copy editor. For Mouse and Dragon, we did a wiki, instead, but same idea -- to help make (some) things easier.
Re: What of Theo's copyeds?
Date: 2010-01-25 12:24 am (UTC)Different copy editor. I suspect, like writers, they're all different.
...thinking back, the only copy edit note I can remember on the Crystal books, was for Crystal Dragon (Meisha Merlin had pretty much stopped copy editing by then); the nice folks at Embiid hated the first section and wanted us to pull it from the book and publish it as a chapbook or something.
Alas, we couldn't accommodate them, because MM was publishing the book with that section, and we didn't want a variant ebook edition.
Re: Well it was just a thought
Date: 2010-01-25 12:25 am (UTC)Re: What of Theo's copyeds?
Date: 2010-01-25 12:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-25 03:44 am (UTC)There's nothing wrong with the reader having to puzzle things out while the copyeditor gets a free pass :)
In order to figure out consistency of such things, a copyeditor may have to read the book one more pass than they otherwise would. I'm not sure how many passes a typical copyeditor does for reading. I'd imagine that a professional copyed can manage a book in two passes, but maybe that's untrue.
Copyeditors make lists of characters and their relationships, their eye and hair color, etc. They make timelines of events. They check logic and math. They might even draw maps. All of these things get exponentially harder in series-length work. Language is probably a lot easier, because I think it only grows linearly with the length of the series, it doesn't square or cube!
I like your expectations from readers.
Date: 2010-01-25 05:26 am (UTC)Anyhoo, I just want to thank you for all the stuff you put up with. I'm just so glad you are writing. I'm not a fandom type, I am just really grateful to have the Liaden Universe as part of mine!
Re: What of Theo's copyeds?
Date: 2010-01-25 02:32 pm (UTC)YouTube is your friend :) (the first 1:02 of this is work safe; the rest -- not so much. You have been warned. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaAmlhzELpw)
Or, actually, you've been to convention panels, or masquerades, where there was an interpreter on stage to Sign the commentary? Pilot-talk is quicker, because, well. . .pilots, and there are of course, occupation-specific signs, but -- if you've ever seen a fluent speaker of Sign, you've got the basics.
Re: What of Theo's copyeds?
Date: 2010-01-25 05:54 pm (UTC)Yes, I'd assumed that it is some variant of 'Sign' (ASL and BSL are very different I gather), but I want to learn the proper ones. Like with Klingon, when it was introduced we got the general idea but it's much more real now with a standardised syntax and meanings. And then of course there are the specialised words.
Interestingly, it seems that Terran and Liaden pilot handtalk are more or less mutually intelligible, there are comments that they have a number of differences but a number of important signs seem to be similar. Scouts again seem to have a similar but not identical set of signs. Presumably they either originated from a common source (whoever got there first?) or they converged with cultural intercourse, much as the spoken 'Trade' language is understood by almost everyone.
(Sorry, linguistic geek here. I also want a correspondence course in high and low Liaden -- I'll settle for a copy of Anne's notes -- and Clutch and Yxtrang. Oh, and blueprints for their FTL drives, and starcharts and the Caylon jump tables; a working ship with jump capabilities would be nice as well *g*...)
Re: What of Theo's copyeds?
Date: 2010-01-25 07:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-25 08:53 pm (UTC)And that seems quite appropriate as each book tells its own story as well as contributing to the Story. Style can change from scene to scene to adapt to a different viewpoint for events. It seems that to require all books in the Story to follow a single style is both foolish and damaging to the Story.
Would they copy-edit the Bible to a single homogeneous style? And "correct" the account of events for consistency? (Yes, I know, some people think that has already been done... my point still stands.)
Doc