Fun With Words
Saturday, September 23rd, 2006 09:52 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rolanniAll righty, then.
The alert reader will remember Carousel Tides, which had a few weeks ago gone out to the bold and courageous folken who had agreed to be beta readers. The comments are now in, since every one of them reads much faster than I write, and are insightful and helpful. In the way of such things, everyone found something different to note or talk about*. My job now is synthesis, and then a little more wait before I actually, y'know, read the whole manuscript myself.
*With this exception: No fewer than three readers wished to know what "ravin" meant. Fair enough. I accept that I know a lot of weird words. Also? I have been known to make words up when none of those on hand were precisely what I wanted, so they're right to watch me. If "ravin" kicks even experienced readers out of the story, it needs to go, and another, less weird, word found to bear its weight.
Which brings us to today's exercise. Behold the sentence frag in which "ravin" appears:
The alert reader will remember Carousel Tides, which had a few weeks ago gone out to the bold and courageous folken who had agreed to be beta readers. The comments are now in, since every one of them reads much faster than I write, and are insightful and helpful. In the way of such things, everyone found something different to note or talk about*. My job now is synthesis, and then a little more wait before I actually, y'know, read the whole manuscript myself.
*With this exception: No fewer than three readers wished to know what "ravin" meant. Fair enough. I accept that I know a lot of weird words. Also? I have been known to make words up when none of those on hand were precisely what I wanted, so they're right to watch me. If "ravin" kicks even experienced readers out of the story, it needs to go, and another, less weird, word found to bear its weight.
Which brings us to today's exercise. Behold the sentence frag in which "ravin" appears:
...vandals and condominium developers poised to rape and ravin the land.
Now, I like this. "rape and ravin" have a nice rhythmic rrrr thing going on between them, I like the reflection back to the vandals, and I want to evoke precisely the sort of terrible things both "rape" and "ravin" have packed inside them. In short, I think the phrase says everything it should say, neatly, sweetly and in voice.
OTOH, we certainly don't want people getting knocked out of the story at this point, saying "WTF is 'ravin'?" (I think it's broadly understandable from context, but that's just me.)
The search is therefore on for a new phrase. I dismiss out of hand "rape and pillage". "Rape and wreck" preserves the rrrrr thing, but, I dunno, "wreck" just doesn't pack the same weapons as "ravin."
Suggestions? Comments?
Now, I like this. "rape and ravin" have a nice rhythmic rrrr thing going on between them, I like the reflection back to the vandals, and I want to evoke precisely the sort of terrible things both "rape" and "ravin" have packed inside them. In short, I think the phrase says everything it should say, neatly, sweetly and in voice.
OTOH, we certainly don't want people getting knocked out of the story at this point, saying "WTF is 'ravin'?" (I think it's broadly understandable from context, but that's just me.)
The search is therefore on for a new phrase. I dismiss out of hand "rape and pillage". "Rape and wreck" preserves the rrrrr thing, but, I dunno, "wreck" just doesn't pack the same weapons as "ravin."
Suggestions? Comments?
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2006-09-23 02:43 pm (UTC)I'm with
Re: Stet
Date: 2006-09-23 02:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-23 02:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-23 02:47 pm (UTC)Or if you are not yet determined to that course of action, might I suggest using the alternate spelling of "raven" since the word "ravenous" is in common usage?
I am now wondering how many times I've read the word "ravish" and the author meant "ravage" and vice versa.
Re: Stet
Date: 2006-09-23 02:55 pm (UTC)Ravage is probably too close to rape, devour, which is pretty close in meaning lacks the alliteration. Sigh.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-23 03:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-23 03:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-23 03:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-23 03:36 pm (UTC)See, but that spelling makes me wonder who let that dern bird in here...
no subject
Date: 2006-09-23 04:29 pm (UTC)Yeah, English be a tricksy language.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-23 04:47 pm (UTC)OTOH, Personally, I avoid the use of 'rape' except to express that very specific act of violation. I might have chosen 'ravage and ruin' instead.
OT3rd Hand, Those who would not understand the usage of any of those phrases, and would choose not to look it up, might oughta read something else. ;-)
no subject
Date: 2006-09-23 05:58 pm (UTC)I think there are two problems here, rather than just one. First, as you note, ravin is a rare word. Neither my wife nor I had seen it before, which I suggest puts it into Gene Wolfe territory.
Second, it's being used in its rarest sense -- as best I can tell from my references, ravin is usually a noun, sometimes an intransitive verb, and not quite never a transitive verb.
So...
If you want to preserve the sense of "greedily gobble up", and the alliteration with rape as well, I'd suggest going with raven. It's got a very common cognate that gives the right idea of what it means, and its most common use is as a transitive verb.
On the other hand, rape and raven strikes me as a mixed metaphor. Predators don't rape, and plunderers don't eat the thing they plunder (though they may eat some of the plunder). Maybe I'm overly sensitive to that sort of thing.
At any rate, I would humbly suggest giving up on ravin/raven entirely, or using raven by itself, or with some other (probably non-alliterative) transitive verb of predation. As an alliterative pair, ravish and ravage or rape and ravage would avoid the mixed metaphor (since plunder and destruction are consistent but different behaviors), but might be a bit clichéed.
(...raven and wolf..., while amusing, would be A Bad Idea.)
Just my $.02.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-23 06:07 pm (UTC)According to our friend the OED ravin is an alternate spelling for raven in both meanings. And the last usage they're citing is 1862. In some ways, it's too antiqidated for your audience (even though Queen Bess and Geoff Chaucer use it, and their use makes anything acceptable).
no subject
Date: 2006-09-23 06:12 pm (UTC)Actually, I am.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-23 06:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-23 06:21 pm (UTC)Re: Stet
Date: 2006-09-23 06:22 pm (UTC)Re: Stet
Date: 2006-09-23 06:51 pm (UTC)Macbeth.
Thine own life’s means!
that scottish play
Date: 2006-09-23 06:57 pm (UTC)*bangs head on desk*
thank you. I should have known that.
looking for the word . . . .
Date: 2006-09-23 07:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-23 11:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-24 01:55 am (UTC)my 2 cents
Date: 2006-09-24 05:11 am (UTC)"rape and rupture" -- nice alliteration
"rape and gouge" -- evokes images of 'dozers and such
"rape and ruin" -- plain, easy to understand
no subject
Date: 2006-09-24 12:01 pm (UTC)Hubby thinks: "that ravin should stay, also. Vocabulary improvements are one of the prime effects of reading. If it absolutely must go, ravage might be an acceptible substitute."
no subject
Date: 2006-09-25 01:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-27 12:09 am (UTC)Back in the stone ages, one of the creative writing teachers used to pass out 3x5 cards with unusual words on them, and ask us to include them in the story. Fun course! Anyway, tricks that we found ourselves using included a bit more explanation or definition of that word, sometimes cleverly hidden as "action definition" - do something and then use the word, thus showing what it means - or the always fun "dialog definition" - have one character use it, another ask what that means, and then the first gets to explain it. I.e., using it once in the story makes it stand out, while using it a few times with added context makes it a part of the landscape? Or maybe you could have a Kiddie's Book of Exploitation, with pictures showing rape and ravin? Well, maybe not.
Any chance of adding it to the pirate exchanges? Rape and ravin sounds like a rallying cry for pirates somehow? And then you could do some more context setting there?
Anyway, should be interesting to see what you come up with! Thanks!
My $0.02
Date: 2006-09-28 05:05 am (UTC)Myself, I might be tempted to wrack and ravish the land but it does lack the emotional punch of rape. Defile and desecrate? That's a tricky one.