Inquiring Minds: Used Books, Part the Third, What on Earth is this All About, Anyway?

[rolanni]

kaygo, if you're around, please keep me honest, here.

The short form is that there are some writers -- in the majority nice, reasonable, thoughtful people -- who sincerely believe that sales of used books are gutting their new-book sales. They are, quite reasonably, concerned for their incomes, and have determined that Something Must Be Done about used book sales. In support of this belief set, they offer various arguments and make a couple of suppositions.

The rest of the discussion is mercifully

Argument the First. It's all very well and good to buy an OOP author used, but! had that author achieved sufficient new book sales, she might not now be out of print.

Well...this is sorta unprovable. But it does have a nice panic-making ring to it.

Argument the Second. Buyer A will inevitably put Hardcover Novel, which she purchased for $25, on sale after she has read it. Buyer B will pick it up for $12, and will inevitably sell it after she has read it to Buyer C, who gets a real bargain at $6. Thus you achieve a continuous cycle of Hardcover Novel being bought, read, and sold, while the author has only received the royalties from one (1) new sale, and has only one (1) sale to show the book buyer at the local chain.

There is some value to Argument the Second. Back in the Dark Ages, when the first three Liaden books came out from Del Rey, they failed for "lack of numbers." However, as we later came to find out from emails and letters, lots and lots and lots of people had read them, lending them from friend to friend to friend. But. What has happened between Then and Now is the internet. Readers are now much more informed regarding the realities of bookstore numbers, and, in my experience, try to support favorite authors by purchasing new.

Argument the Third.The very existence of cheap hardcover books (as low as $0.01!) on Amazon.com, must mean that readers who are shopping for the mass market will be compelled to buy the cheap(er) hardcover edition.

Erm. If I'm looking for a paperback, which will fit in my purse, so I can take it with me and read it on the bus, I'm not gonna buy a hardcover, $0.01 or no. If my shelves are all spaced for paperbacks, I don't have any place to put a hardcover, no matter how cheap it is. And so on.

Argument the Fourth. There are Studies Proving that Used Book Sales are through the roof and that Money is Being Lost because of it.

Well...yes and no.

At least one of those studies was been made by academic publishers, who would really rather that college bookstores not make used textbooks available to students. Another of those studies also deals with the resale market in non-fiction books. They're not really about fiction resales.

Yet another of those studies does not, IMHO, take into account a reality of the marketplace.

Say, for instance I'm selling used books. I put my inventory in ABEbooks. There are various programs for booksellers using ABE. For instance, I can get my books listed on Amazon.com, and on a couple other internet bookstores. I've been in business for a pretty good amount of time and I have friends who also sell used books.

So, I sell a book, through my affiliation with ABEbooks, through its program with Amazon.com. ABEbooks reports its sales: 1 book. Amazon.com reports its sales: 1 book. I report my sales: 1 book. Yup; that's the same book, reported three times.

Also, those friends of mine in the business? Say I list Agent of Change in my ABEbooks inventory, because I usually have one or two. But I had a rush on the title and am temporarily out of stock. I email my buddy, Fran, and ask her if she has any copies of Agent.... She does! Cool, can she ship it to my customer? She does! Have we sold two books, or one?

There's also the vexed problem of remainders, which is a side issue, rather than a full argument all its own. Remainders are books that the publisher has let go into the resale stream at their cost or a little above, in order to get their money out of the stock. As I understand it, remaindering does produce an income stream for some publishers. Used booksellers do buy remaindered books, and offer them for sale. They are not evil for doing so, though one might wish to examine the publishers' motives a little more closely.

Argument the Fifth. Which seems to be particular to romance authors. Harlequin, I believe, has a bookclub, which delivers to its members new books in advance of release. So it is possible, and apparently does happen, that a book that isn't even released yet is being sold at half cover price at the neighborhood used bookstore.

I agree that this is a problem, but again -- the problem is with Harlequin's system, not with the used booksellers.

Supposition the First. Most readers don't know that authors receive no royalties on used book sales. Therefore, We the Authors must educate them.

I've never met a reader who didn't know that used book sales generate no royalties. The poll bears this out -- including one person who states that they sometimes buy used in order to deny the author royalties, which demonstrates a sophisticated, if odd, understanding of the system.

Supposition the Second. If publishers consistently marked remaindered books, sold them without covers, or in some other way made them into "hurts," the books would still be in the used book stream, but they would not be resold again and again (as in Argument the Second), because they would be less attractive.

Say what?

*deep breath*

So, that's what the poll was all about, and I'm grateful to all who took the time to add to my information on the topic.

And if you've actually read all this, you're a saint. :-)

Comments

[mamabeast.livejournal.com]

i'm all guilty feeling now, not that iver ever bought a Miller & Lee book used (have never seen one at the used book store, have at half.com)

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Going by reader correspondence, lots of people have bought one of our books at their local used bookstore. And then went on to buy the rest new, all according to our insidious plan.

I honestly don't think used bookstore are evil. What did make me crazy were the people who were trying to sell (well) used copies of the Del Rey edition of Conflict of Honors for upwards of $60. That was badly done, IMHO; not because I wasn't going to get my piece of the action, but because the book wasn't worth that kind of money.

[orlacarey.livejournal.com]

Frankly many times if I have a choice of buying new through Amazon or used through an online book store or ebay I'll buy new. Why? Because if I order enough on Amazon I get free shipping. The cost of shipping lots of times brings the cost of the used book up to the price of a new paperback.

[kalimeg.livejournal.com]

Well, then why push for library sales? Why is Baen successful when it puts free books online? Exposure is more than half the battle for any writer.

These little fear-mongers have some ulterior motive, but I'm darned if I can fathom it.

The Thor decision made a solid backlist difficult to achieve. If you don't know what that is, you should have no part in a debate on books being in print and book pricing.

Thor made the cost of paperbacks skyrocket. It also made large print runs to warehouse a backlist a thing of the past.

A paper book is currently 1/3 the cost of an outrageously priced hardback. Paperbacks were once .60 - .95 and hardbacks 5.00 -- right around 1970. The interventions of courst have not improved the situation for the reader. Oh, and the minimum wage is currently only 5 something. When the minimum was 1.25, a paperback was .60. You can't buy a paperback for an hour's work anymore. Think about that for a bit.

[havocthecat]

The Thor decision made a solid backlist difficult to achieve. If you don't know what that is, you should have no part in a debate on books being in print and book pricing.

I'm sure you have a good point; however, I have no idea what the Thor decision is. Would you mind telling those of us who don't have a clue are reading the thread to learn more about the debate on books in print and book pricing, please? Thanks!

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Couple of quick links that may be helpful.

http://www.sfwa.org/bulletin/articles/thor.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Power_Tool_Company_v._Commissioner_of_Internal_Revenue

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

These are folks who know very well about Thor Power Tools and its impact on the business. Doesn't stop them from being worried when they see their income going down and the cost of everything else going up, and casting about for Reasons and Ways to Fix It.

The point about the minimum wage and the relative cost of books is interesting. I remember buying $.35 paperbacks. But. *breaks out the calculator and mumbles some numbers* OK. If we consider the advance a wage -- which I'll admit is stretching it, but royalties are pie-in-the-sky and can't be counted until/unless the book earns out -- for the last book we wrote on contract, we were paid...looks like $4.63/hour. Before taxes. That's highballing it, and doesn't take into account things like prep time and research.

In publishing, it's (mostly) NOT the author's wage that's driving up the price of books.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

.looks like $4.63/hour. Before taxes.

I should add: Split between two of us.

[kalimeg.livejournal.com]

Oh, I would never suggest that the author costs are the problem. Your minimum wage is as awful as any in the marketplace. Lower print runs have higher costs -- we can thank Thor once more. It was the start of a really high spiralling of rack prices.

Yeah, I am aware that when I worked at a Dairy Queen for 1.25 an hour I could buy 2 .60 paperbacks -- there was no sales tax then, so you got two whole books for an hour of work. Now, you can get one used book for an hour of work at that same place. The difference is telling. Of course, I don't work at a Dairy Queen anymore, although if I don't find something pretty soon, I will be back to doing temps.

less than two cents

[baggette.livejournal.com]

I buy used books almost exclusively. GoodWill, library sales, and yard sales keep me in all the books I can read of fiction and non-fiction.
The new books in my collection are all gifts (sometimes from myself) and are usually books that cannot be found used (like yours), because no-one wants to give up their own copies.
I haven't yet purchased used books from the internet, because my reading list is already too long.
Most of the authors I see on those thrift sale donation shelves have made more money than I will ever see; they don't need $28 from me as much as I need more books (Which is to say, NOT AT ALL-AT ALL!).
If I could not buy them used, I would borrow more from the library. When I am finished with a book, I donate it back to a worthy cause. I have yet to SELL any of my books, because I would like to live in a Utopia where the exchange of ideas is free for all. Since I don't live there yet, I will at least not be party to financing the MACHINE.

(Steps off soap box) hope this exchange of ideas is helpful for you and your writing frineds. Now, would you be so kind as to get back to work WRITING; and provide me with more reading entertainment than I can really afford?

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

"but! had that author achieved sufficient new book sales, she might not now be out of print. "

The next time you run into these authors, ask if I can also retroactively resurrect Lovecraft from starvation. In general, I'm buying OOP books because I hadn't heard of them when in print. (I know you're not making this argument; I'm just amazed by the silliness of it.)

Good luck with these people. They might as well be mounting campaigns against the north wind in the wintertime.

[celticdragonfly.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'm rather relieved to find you guys aren't against used sales... sorry that I interpreted the earlier poll to think that you did.

But then, I'm a Baen fan, and all for his bookpushing styles and "more exposure is good" ideas.

[kristine-smith.livejournal.com]

I'm here.

Everything you posted--makes sense. I've heard it all as well.

I think an additional issue with category Romance is that, iirc, the books have a very limited shelf life anyway. There are a lot of them, and they're only around for a month or two at most. So a quick dumping of used copies on the market may affect those sales more than they might affect a book that stays on the shelves for a couple of years.

Part of me sees what seems to be the same 15-20 books rotating through the Amazon used book merry-go-round, and wonders if my numbers would really be any better if those books were all new. Another part thinks it would be damned arrogant of me to ask readers to only buy my books new, because I don't know their circumstances and they may not be able to afford to do that, and then what? They don't buy my books at all?

OTOH, I see some of the used book exchanges on the internet, and I wonder, because the internet changed the dynamics. It made every store global.

I honestly don't know what to think. I wish there were harder numbers to be had that indicated whether or not this is an issue.

[graykin.livejournal.com]

Just as a clarification I would like to point out that there is only one instance where denying the author royalties was my motivation for buying used books. However, since I don't often buy used books and this was fairly recent I decided to mention it. If she wasn't already set for life with a bigger circulation than God and actually _needed_ or would notice royalties from my purchases I'd have gotten over myself and bought new. As it is I'm just being somewhat snooty about the whole Hugo acceptance (or specifically lack thereof).

[papersky.livejournal.com]

In the interests of full disclosure, I have also done this -- when there are writers who I despise as people but I want to read their books, I'll deliberately pick them up used.

I don't do this a whole hell of a lot, because the field of writers I despise as people but whose books I like is pretty damn small.

Also, with authors I really like I sometimes buy new books in hardcover because I can't wait and then sell or give away the hardcover when I buy the paperback to keep and re-read.

[kk1raven.livejournal.com]

I can think of one fiction author whom I'd want to deny royalties to. That hasn't turned out to be much of an issue though because at about the same time I realized that the opinions he expresses are so distressing to me that I don't want to support him I also realized that I didn't really like most of his newer books either.

[adrian-turtle.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. These people seem to be thinking of the ideal book customer with unlimited money. I'd like to meet this person (maybe we could go shopping? or out to dinner?) but I've never heard of hir outside a textbook. In a month when I have $30 to spend on books, I can get one new hardcover, or 3 new paperbacks. Or 5-6 used paperbacks from most stores. Or 10-12 used paperbacks from my local store, where I sell back my culls and usually have tradein credit. (The store will use exchange credit to pay half the price, and wants cash for the other half -- you can't buy anything just on tradein credit.) If I'm giving a book as a gift, it's more likely to be a new book, but that's not certain...sometimes the book is out of print, and it's more important to give someone the right title than to give a nice new copy of something else. And there have been times I couldn't bear to spend all my money on a gift for one night for one person. I get the rest of my own books from the library. Not the library book sale, as those tend to be moldy. I get them from the library and return them in 3 weeks.

If somebody I read objects to my reading their books used, or borrowing them from the library. I suppose I would stop reading their books. I'd lose quite a lot of respect for the author along the way.

[adrian-turtle.livejournal.com]

>there have been times I couldn't bear to spend all my money on a gift for one night for one person

I mean for Chanuka presents. In my family we give 1 present every night. A lot of those presents end up being books.

[phil-boswell.livejournal.com]

So all of Jim Baen's hard work with Eric Flint setting up the "Baen Free Library" was a waste of time? Not if you take their word seriously.

So Jim Baen's idea of enclosing CD-ROMs containing whole series of books with first-round hardbacks was a bad idea? Not unless you think they're masochists, coming round for...what is it now, a tenth and eleventh round of beatings?

One wonders what sort of credentials these "experts" have who make these pronouncements which fly in the face of reality.

Oh yes, and one wonders which writers in particular are so worried about their sales that they are willing to kick their thus-far-loyal readers in the teeth...

[threeringedmoon.livejournal.com]

I have five or six authors that I buy in hardcover or trade, even though I could probably get them from the library sooner or later. My pattern with most authors that publish in trade or hardcover format first is to put them on reserve at the library, and then buy the paperback when it comes out. However, of those authors I buy in non-pb format, Bujold is probably the only one that would not be considered mid-list or small press. I specifically buy the trade / hard cover versions to support favorite authors that I know have not hit mass popularity.

One point I haven't seen mentioned above is that used book stores do provide a certain amount of price support for new book prices, which would benefit authors' new sales indirectly.

[sraun]

Another point about the $0.01 hardback on Amazon.com - the used book dealers are in business to make money. They're going to price their books appropriately - if they're only charging a penny for a book, that's likely to mean it's moving so slowly that they just want to be rid of the thing. 'This title is moving so slowly I can't afford to store it until it sells at a reasonable price.' Of course, that says such wonderful things about an author's popularity!

This evaluation does ignore the dealers that are charging an arm and a leg for shipping & handling, and making their profit there.

[kk1raven.livejournal.com]

It's all very well and good to buy an OOP author used, but! had that author achieved sufficient new book sales, she might not now be out of print.

I'd have to agree with that, but I can't see it as an argument against used book sales. That seems to be an argument for fixing issues with how new books are distributed, advertised (or not) and how long they're kept available on store shelves. If a book is not advertised, the store only puts a single copy on the shelf, and it disappears totally after only a few weeks, it isn't going to have good sales.

I had an interesting discussion last year with one of the employees at the local WaldenBooks. She asked me if I needed help finding anything and I commented that I'd buy more books there if the books I wanted were actually available when I looked for them. She described their new method of restocking books that were sold. When books sold, they replaced them with half the number sold. So if two copies sold, they ordered one more. If one copy sold, they didn't buy more. So a book that they only stocked one copy of, which would be much of the sf/f section, had no chance of being restocked. She was buying quite a few of the science fiction books herself, as they came in. I don't know if that method of restocking applied to the whole chain or to that particular store. I will note that that store is now gone.

Used book stores evil?

[(Anonymous)]

I first read Agent Of Change from a used book store. I would not have bought it new as I had never heard of the authors. After I read it I spent several years looking through new and used book stores until the popularization of the internet looking for more books by Lee and Miller. This is the case with many of my favorite authors. I doubt that I would find and/or read the variety of authors without the cheaper used book market so I don't have to spend so much on a new and unproven author.