Said-isms

[rolanni]

All righty, then.

I just read a reader review of a book (not one of ours) in which the reviewer was bitching and moaning about all the said-isms in the book. People never just said anything, the reviewer complained (um, oops), they whispered, murmured, hissed, cried, mumbled, &c -- and everyone knew that was Just Wrong.

Well, I'm going to 'fess up; I didn't know that it was wrong. And I'm going to go one step farther; "said" is an awfully boring word. Oh, it has its uses, and use it I do. But, honestly, if someone has murmured, why not say so? If she mumbles, or stammers at a certain point, that might, yanno, be a Clue. I'd think a whole page of dialogue broken only by "said" would put me right to sleep. Granted, I could be in a minority here.

So, I have some questions.

The first is, where do you learn that "said-isms" are "wrong?" and how come I never got the memo?

The second is, what are your feelings about "said-isms":

[Poll #1222698]

or -- feel free to discuss in comments.

Comments

[difrancis.livejournal.com]

You learn it in books and in classes. I talk about them in my writing classes--about how to use them properly. I voted okay because if I trip over them, then they annoy the hell out of me. I just read a book that was a romance and there's this climactic scene where the two main characters are sorting themselves out, and every time they spoke, it had a dialog tag that seemed slightly off, and also interrupted the flow. One was the word intoned and it so did not fit the scene at all.

I like using them and having them because they can subtly reinforce a lot of things in the scene, but it's when they are overused that I tend to stumble on them, or when the writer tries so hard to use different ones every time, that they start getting noticeable. And then too, when we travel long driving trips, I'm often the book on tape. I read my husband the Harry Potter novels, and found myself skipping reading a whole lot of the saids because they were accompanied by so many adverbs, that I began to feel self-conscious about them. Weird, huh?

[jack_calls_dances]

What she said.

[adina-atl.livejournal.com]

There's nothing wrong with murmuring when the character is murmuring. The problem is when he murmurs to avoid saying, or when the author clearly thinks that she can avoid the "talking head" syndrome of uninterrupted dialogue by coming up with increasingly inventive and unlikely verbs instead of "said," without including any other description or action.

[drammar.livejournal.com]

If they are well used, "said-isms" add spice to the mix. If the author uses "said-isms" by themselves to set the tone of the dialogue then it seems forced and off-kilter.

One of the things that I like about Lee/Miller writing is that much of the dialogue is generally allowed to be dialogue, with minimal interference from supporting verbs and adverbs of any sort.

[farwing.livejournal.com]

So...while I was at a certain writing workshop I was told that said-isms were Evil. But I like them. In moderation. I have a tendency to just...fail to attribute things. Or to attribute things by context so as to avoid having to say "said" or "mumbled" all the time. *shrug* But I really do think they can be useful. It seems to me the hatred of said-isms (we called them "said book isms" at writing camp) probably came out of a reaction to their overuse. (I also find that "said-isms" is a name that has never made much sense to me. I'm not sure what I would call them if I had the choice, but it would be something different, because for the longest time I had no earthly idea what people were talking about.) Um. That got long.

Evolution of Writing and Multi-Media

[wjb3-reads.livejournal.com]

(I also find that "said-isms" is a name that has never made much sense to me. I'm not sure what I would call them if I had the choice, but it would be something different, because for the longest time I had no earthly idea what people were talking about.)

[tongue in cheek] verb? [end tongue in cheek].

Reminded me of another recent thread:

( http://nancyfulda.livejournal.com/202772.html?thread=723988#t723988 )
"I have a similar theory about dialects in older fiction. Before audio recording, the only way you could know what an accent sounded like was to either meet someone who had it or to read it phonetically."

I love verbs that describe dialogue. When I was younger, I could look up 'mutter' in a dictionary. I would have a harder time looking up "Yo' ole father doan' know yit what he's a-gwyne to do."
=

[readinggeek451]

It's something that I've heard for years.

My feeling is that if they accurately reflect how the character is talking, and aren't overused, they're fine. When they become obtrusive, then they're a problem. I've never consciously noticed yours, so you must be doing it right.

I voted "okay" because "it depends" wasn't one of the choices. :)

[kalimeg.livejournal.com]

Beautiful icon -- may I steal it?

[sraun]

I picked OK - and like the posters before me, I'm in the 'fine if used well' camp. I've heard several rants on the topic - if I push, it turns out that the reviewer is really ranting about them being over-used or used badly.

[lagilman]

I got into this at Hypericon with Joe Lansdale. He hates 'em with a passion. Me, I think they're a tool. Used well, it gives (as you said) additional clues to the character and the situation. Used badly (you can't hiss a word, much less a sentence unless you're a snake, and even then only if you're using sibilants, damn it!) and they're, well, Bad.

IME(ditorial)O and R(eader)MMV

(edited,as usual, for typos)

Hissing

[(Anonymous)]

Don't think I agree about the ability of words or sentences to be hissed. Sibilants or no, my mother was certainly capable of hissing anything
when we were acting up in public or anywhere a good swat was inappropriate. Jenny from WA

[kalimeg.livejournal.com]

It's good to use different words -- until you overuse something. The first time LM Bujold used "breathed", it was perfect. The second time, it was ok. By the third time it was old, and now it gets on my nerves -- just *because* it is so conspicuous.

[(Anonymous)]

Miles just talks like that--he can't help it. If you notice, it is only one of his more manic characteristics.

Unfair to blame it on Lois McMaster Bujold.

What?

[katmoonshaker.livejournal.com]

My late grandmother once told me, "Speaking to yourself is a sign of intelligence." She also said, "You are not middle-aged until you are seventy-five." Strangely enough I had reason to mention this to two different people over the course of four days spent in the hospital lately (two for my husband and two for myself, we went for the "two for one" sale). I vote for "What?". Sometimes one speaks and sometimes one has reason to convey in a different context. A writer who brings us into a world which is not our own does well to do that also. How else shall we know where we are?

[miladyinsanity.livejournal.com]

There is a bell curve, with the peak at OK. I think there will be one anyway.

But I've seen this come up loads of times now. Some people don't like it--I know of at least one writer who is really against dialogue tags or Said-isms, period. She says they are Wrong, whether it is plain ole said, to exclaimed, whispered or shouted.

Other people say not to bother with the other variations and say that plain ole said is good ole said and prefer it to the others.

So amongst the extremists you have NO Said-isms and Said is Always Good and the rest not so good. I was a Said-ism Nazi for a bit but not any more. It's too hard. Plus, in writing, there are many exceptions to every rule.

Nowadays, I use a dialogue tag when I think I need one because I need it for the rhythm/cadence, which usually means that I use said most often.

[malkingrey.livejournal.com]

Done to excess, they're a bad thing, and the excess point is fairly low. It's a play-by-ear case-by-case kind of thing, though, and some writers have a better ear for it than others.

A lot of newbie writers either don't have the ear or haven't sufficiently developed it yet; and it's an easy thing for a critic with a checklist and no sense for the whole of a thing to pull out of context and complain about.

[anghara.livejournal.com]

It's fine if used like salt - enough of it to spice the broth of story but not enough to kill every other taste that may be present therein. I'm not too terribly bothered if I see them scattered around, used properly, in context, i.e. if a character is speaking in a low voice it is perfectly okay to have that character "murmur" or "mutter" something.

The trouble comes when some writers - often new ones, just starting out, with no real ear for or experience in writing dialogue as yet, succumb to the misapprehension that "said" must never be used at all at all not EVVVVER, and then go through the damned thesaurus trying to find (usually inappropriate) replacements.

YOU CANNOT HISS SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T HAVE AN S IN IT. I'm sorry, you just can't.

"Dialogue like,

"Get out!" he hissed

simply makes me mad," she said.

[baggette.livejournal.com]

I suppose that I must be in the "Love 'em" category, with the caveat that the "said-isms" are not over used or used improperly. The majority of authors I enjoy (yourselves included)have mastered the art of dialog so well that I do not even notice. While helping junior high and high school students in the editing process of their writing assignments, I encourage them to mix it up; rather than handing in white bread. Good writing should be more like multi grain bread; with texture and seeds for further details or exploration, later.
Individuals who insist on rigid observance of ANY rule, likely lack the imagination to be very good at entertaining in any venue. JMO

He said, she said

[bookmobiler.livejournal.com]

I say if said well it doesn't matter what was said. If said poorly you should have said it some other way. Say what you want. Just don't let me say you bored me.

[redbird]

They're one of the things that's easy to do badly. (TNH gives the example of an author writing that someone "hissed" a sentence that contained no sibilants.) I suspect this is part of why people are told to avoid them altogether. And yes, if overused they distract from the actual conversation and events. Sometimes it's relevant that a character yelled or whispered. If an entire dialogue goes "said, spoke, shouted, mentioned, whispered, confided...." with a different verb at each line, that's likely to distract the reader (at least this reader) from what is being said.

[windrose.livejournal.com]

I'm in the "they're fine if used sparingly" camp. A few here there add emphasis. Too many, and you have a mess.

[torrilin.livejournal.com]

Most of the time, people just say stuff. Most. Being stuck in a story is not most of the time.

A lot of my favorite authors use untagged (no he said, no she said) dialogue a great deal. Another large chunk of favorite dialogue is RIFE with "said bookisms". RIFE I tell you. And I adore it. And there's rather a lot full of he said, she said. The most unfavorite dialogue has a similar set of tools used... just it's full of out of character language, stilted ideas, or an awful lot of maid and butler chatter that is not done by Roger Zelazny.

[moon-happy.livejournal.com]

It's useful to remember that plain old "said" disappears for the reader while tagging the speaker with certainty. Gymnastic and clever speaker tags become intrusive and slow me down as a reader. So, I'm fine with "whisper" or "shout" when used to attribute a whisper or a shout, but draw the line at "he pole vaulted." :~)

[moon-happy.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah. I've always heard them called, "said-book-isms."

[victorthecook.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that the prejudice against alternative verbs originates out of over- or mis-use in _Tom Swift_ and similar dime novels, and the subsequent development of "Tom Swifties". Don't sweat it.

[mbarker.livejournal.com]

I've been told (never saw it myself) that at one time in American English courses, there was a list of replacements for "said" which was recommended. So people would replace the term "said" with alternatives from the Said-book, leading to the notion of "said-bookisms." Nice story, pointing to the way that a well-intentioned effort to spice up generic writing could go astray.

I voted okay, and wish there was a "it depends" in the list. When the writing intrudes, it isn't good. Some efforts -- with the verb changing every time the speaker changes, and often with little rhyme or reason -- make it hard to read. Such writers need to try using "said" more often. On the other hand, a page with character name and said as the only dialog tags also gets boring. They need to learn about beats and perhaps try a dash of "said-bookism" substitutes.

Being true to the character and the scene is more important than grand abstract rules (which I consider guidelines to be understood and broken as needed). Go ahead, make my day -- murmur in his ear when it suits and be damned to the writing nazis.

The Said Book by J. I. Rodale

[mbarker.livejournal.com]

Since I had a few moments, I went looking for the fabled Said Book. Apparently 1947, and here's a copy for sale for about $15. http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/tbells/11-30003040.shtml

It looks as if J. I. Rodale also produced the Synonym Finder in about 1987. And a number of gardening books?

Anyway, there appears to be an actual "Said Book" to help flagging writers think of something else.

[seekergeek.livejournal.com]

Too many saids can be boring. Tooo many different words used to replace said can be stupid. Any good writer tries to minimize thee occurrence of both problems.

[janni.livejournal.com]

What they all said--if used in moderation, sure.

Tf they occasionally fit and are wanted right at that moment, sure. But if one is stretching simply to avoid using the word said, that's more of a problem.

I'm fond of other tags entirely when I can--say, a character action after they speak--but that doesn't always work and can become forced, too.

[(Anonymous)]

Going to the other extreme, I remember hearing children's author Enid Blyton criticised for using "said" almost exclusively.

Philip from Auckland, NZ

[badgermirlacca.livejournal.com]

I think it's a matter of striking the proper balance. Was it Barry Longyear who refused to use not only "said," but any adverb describing how someone spoke?

"Said" has its place. But depending on the way the scene is written, providing stage directions is the only way for the reader to know how a line of dialog is meant to be read.

I think either way, you don't want it to be noticeable.