Only Nine Days until Delivery for Mouse and Dragon
Sunday, July 5th, 2009 10:36 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rolanniIt's not raining. More, the sun is out, and there's a nice breeze playing in the trees outside my window. Too bad we have stuff to do inside.
I've been going through the story cards here at the Confusion Factory, mostly to see if I can figure out why the file manuscript of Agent is on nine-pin burst paper. I'm guessing the typescript came back trashed from Ace, where it was submitted first, and I retyped it into the (then lately acquired) computer before sending it out to DAW. There's no other reason that accounts for both the month-long gap in getting the manuscript back into the mail and the computer printout.
Anyhow, going through the cards, I'm struck by the various rejection notes gathered over the years. Mostly, it seems that "nothing happens" in our stories; indeed "Candlelight" was rejected numerous times with the note that "something needs to happen" in the narrative. Then of course there was Stephe Pagel's fond description of Local Custom "the book where nothing happens," and Shelly Shapiro's comments regarding Carpe Diem, which she objected to because (so it says in my notes from our phone conversation) "nothing happens." Since I suspect that "nothing" also happens in Mouse and Dragon, I'm now even more interested in seeing the inevitable revision notes.
So, here's a question for an unrainy Sunday: How much action, and what kind, do you as a reader require in a book to remain engaged? And, for extra credit: What's your favorite book in which "nothing happens"?
I've been going through the story cards here at the Confusion Factory, mostly to see if I can figure out why the file manuscript of Agent is on nine-pin burst paper. I'm guessing the typescript came back trashed from Ace, where it was submitted first, and I retyped it into the (then lately acquired) computer before sending it out to DAW. There's no other reason that accounts for both the month-long gap in getting the manuscript back into the mail and the computer printout.
Anyhow, going through the cards, I'm struck by the various rejection notes gathered over the years. Mostly, it seems that "nothing happens" in our stories; indeed "Candlelight" was rejected numerous times with the note that "something needs to happen" in the narrative. Then of course there was Stephe Pagel's fond description of Local Custom "the book where nothing happens," and Shelly Shapiro's comments regarding Carpe Diem, which she objected to because (so it says in my notes from our phone conversation) "nothing happens." Since I suspect that "nothing" also happens in Mouse and Dragon, I'm now even more interested in seeing the inevitable revision notes.
So, here's a question for an unrainy Sunday: How much action, and what kind, do you as a reader require in a book to remain engaged? And, for extra credit: What's your favorite book in which "nothing happens"?
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no subject
Date: 2009-07-05 03:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-05 03:40 pm (UTC)Agent of Change is pretty much action-adventure right down the line. Local Custom, on the other hand, is a romance novel, kinda, sorta. A lot of readers who grew up on SF find that "nothing happens" in romance novels, generally -- by which they mean "this is a story about a relationship."
Even SF readers disagree among themselves about how much "relationship stuff" belongs in an SF story. Some would rather have more "science" and just enough characterization to bear the weight of the narrative (because Stories Are About People, even Hard SF stories).
I'm sure I've mentioned that I was once on a panel that asked the panelists if science fiction stories couldn't dispense with characters altogether. The panelists thought not, but there are apparently some readers who would prefer not to have relationships muddying their story.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-05 03:53 pm (UTC)DH thought that character growth might not count as "something happening" to some in the SF community. Thank god there are authors who disagree:)
no subject
Date: 2009-07-05 04:55 pm (UTC)The thing is that your (L+M, D+M, Moon, Asaro, etc.) books aren't /just/ romance. It's just not true that "nothing happens", even in the ones where the relationships are the major part of (and reason for) the story there is action as well, as for instance in LC (explosion + murder mystery + kidnapping == "no action"???).
There seems to be a (largeish) minority opinion among some SF fans that all SF books 'should' be written for their personal tastes, and in particular that writers they like should always keep on writing for the same part of the market. No romance in 'hard' SF, no tech stuff in 'soft' SF, whatever. I don't get it, if they don't like a particular book then give, sell or exchange it with someone else, if an author changes direction and decides to write something different then don't read it if they don't like that.
Nothing is intrinsically anything
Date: 2009-07-05 03:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-05 03:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-05 03:39 pm (UTC)Apparently less than I thought.
What's your favorite book in which "nothing happens"?
Candlelight, I haven't read. Local Custom, I've read once; when I pick up that volume, I'm much more likely to read Scout's Progress. I've read Carpe Diem several times, though generally as part of re-reading the series entire, and of the main series (AoC/CoH/CD/PB/ID), my favorite novel would be Conflict of Honors, followed by I Dare (though the best of that is Pat Rin's story). Make of that what you will.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-05 04:34 pm (UTC)And I consider 'nothing happens' in a book if it's all about the action and none of it about the character growth.
Give me your kind of SF or romance any day over the boring 'and then they were shot at' and 'then the ran and hid' and 'then they shot back' kind of stories any day.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-05 04:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-05 04:59 pm (UTC)As for the books, my favorites are Scout's Progress, Plan B, and I Dare. I wish we had more from Beautiful's POV, because I fnid his situation fascinating and wonder how it will work out in the long run. Perhaps something after the move? I'd love to see more of that in any case!
no subject
Date: 2009-07-05 08:34 pm (UTC)Note that it is not a Liaden Universe story.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-05 05:05 pm (UTC)Going by the vague commentary for Local Custom & Carpe Diem I'm gonna say Portnoy's Complaint, which I read 35ish years ago and only really remember that he spent a lot of time on the couch of his therapist/psychiatrist recounting actions that happened, and I'm probably remembering it wrong by this time in life (grin).
no subject
Date: 2009-07-05 05:17 pm (UTC)Your books vary across this spectrum and what I like about them is even those that can be labeled "plot driven" like Agent of Change, still have a very definite thread of character development included. And contrary to those rejection slip "nothing happens" opinions, even the more character driven books do have considerable plot "doings"...
I'm in the middle of a re-read right now and I definitely enjoy Carpe Diem as much as the others - of course the war is minor compared to the rest of the series, but something definitely happens IMO.
My absolute favorite character driven book is Scout's Progress.
I have to agree with keristor - if you don't like them don't read them - duh...
no subject
Date: 2009-07-05 06:02 pm (UTC)Mostly I am invested in the characters and how they go through their plots.. if nothing happens oh well, planets doent die, Zombies dont rise, but you get the setup for the next book.
Of course, it has to have Turtles!
no subject
Date: 2009-07-05 06:07 pm (UTC)What do these people WANT to be happening? How can you read a story with funny, engaging characters, nefarious bad guys, lovely dialogue, angst, love, mystery, murder, snobbery, hints of magic, and TURTLES, for heaven's sake - and not think anything is happening?
Oh well. The important thing is, someone saw the value in your stories and started publishing them. There is, therefore, Balance in the universe.
I'm one of those people not interested in "shoot em up" stuff. Battles are boring - I'll confess that I'm likely to skim over those sections, even in your books. Car chases...spaceship chases... eh. I'll pass. So it's likely I'm not a good judge of what publishers want to see in books.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-05 07:00 pm (UTC)I bet The Time Traveler's Wife falls into this category as well, along with every historical romance ever written (except possibly An Infamous Army, which will get a pass for the inclusion of real! live! battle scenes).
no subject
Date: 2009-07-05 07:13 pm (UTC)Plenty happens in Carpe Diem. It's a story about Val Con and Miri's relationship and how it strengthens, but it also sees the Department moving openly against Korval and the Scouts. It lays the groundwork for the war that follows. It's not the near-constant action of Agent of Change, but that's what it is to write and read a series.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-06 12:28 am (UTC)Of more importance is whether I have engaged with the character or characters. If I have, then a "lazy day at the beach" can be magnetic. If not, the "Gunfight at the OK Corral" becomes of passing interest ...
Brom
What were they reading?
Date: 2009-07-06 03:51 am (UTC)I'm a sort of character development kind of girl, so while I like action in my books, I prefer it doused with a healthy dose of relationships (not romance exclusively) and character growing. I love your books exactly for that.
I think that my favorite is I Dare, because of Pat Rin's growth in it precisely.
For the same reason, I must add (the development of the relationship between Val Con and Miri, plus all the process of healing and facing the MoI in the person of the agent they sent to retrieve him). That's SOMETHING to me.
Not to mention they faced Xtrang, landed in an unknown place, learned to thrive in it, defeated an invasion and an Agent of Change, and managed to be back on their route to civilized universe. That's SOMETHING too. See? I still don't understand how someone could say that these were books where nothing happened...
You don't have to have time travel and alternate realities to have something happening... *shakes head, then scratches it some more, in confusion*
books in which nothing happens
Date: 2009-07-06 03:54 am (UTC)In a good book, the reader learns or experiences something of value while reading that enlarges him or her to some degree. Crucial to this effort are sympathetic characters with whom the reader can identify and sufficient auctorial skill to make the whole entertaining as well as enlightening. All of which is no mean feat to accomplish.
What happens in a novel by Jane Austen? "Nothing". The characters walk about the neighborhood, they talk with each other, they write letters, they make short trips to make long visits. A rather large proportion of the "action" takes place in the thoughts of the viewpoint characters. And yet Austen's works are still being read and enjoyed today by people who CHOOSE to read them, despite their having been inflicted upon innocent (maybe) high school and university students for generations.
A romance by Georgette Heyer doesn't contain a whole lot of action, and yet they are still sufficiently popular that it is amazingly difficult to find her works on the used book market. And they don't even have any sex in them, unlike most of the modern romance genre. What they DO have is engaging characters, set in a long-past world and time, who must meet, come to understand to some degree, and to fall in love with, another person. In the process they must learn things about themselves that may not be comfortable to learn; deal with the strictures and expectations of the society in which they live; and manage to navigate successfully those perilous shoals. We are doing the same thing today. Our clothes, language and the strictures of society may be somewhat different but the human elements are universal.
What happens in Nick Bantock's series of books about Griffin and sabine? Two people write to each other. They write and they illustrate, and with each astounding card or letter draw us further into their central mystery. There is no swash, nor even any buckle in any of these books, and yet they have all been popular, commercially successful and even received some critical acclaim.
Stories come in all sizes and shapes, and action comes in a corresponding number of varieties as well. There are wonderful books that take on great themes such as the defining of what is good or evil, or what is "human". There are books that span universes or galaxies, empires and worlds, or that bring to life places in the past, illuminate the present, postulate the future. Other books are concerned with a day, a family, a single human heart. But we are not poorer because the scale of the action isn't always on an epic level. Action should be appropriate to the story, with the size of what happens commensurate with the scale of the story itself. It is narrow-minded and ignorant in the extreme to insist that it is only "action" if it involves bloody battle and world domination.
"Searching for Bobby Fischer" (yes, I know it's a movie. I don't know if it was a book first...) involves a boy learning to play chess. Its value does not depend on special effects. The scale of the action is appropriate to the story, which is heart-touching and uplifting; qualities that have value to people who read or watch movies that will lift us up and make us better as well as being enjoyable to read or to see.
the The Bridge of San Luis Rey by Thornton Wilder takes place AFTER the "action", or collapse, of the bridge, simply and masterfully describing the people who were killed by that event to create a powerful and moving story that illustrates love in its infinite aspects.
The size of the action is irrelevant except insofar as it is equal and appropriate to the size of the story of which it is a part. Only its effectiveness need be judged. The scale of a story is not nor ever has been a criterion for judging the value of a piece of literature.
What's your favorite book in which "nothing happens"
Date: 2009-07-06 04:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-06 06:08 pm (UTC)*sigh*
I love Carpe Diem. I love Local Custom.
Bah.
Favorite "nothing happens" book ?
Date: 2009-07-06 10:02 pm (UTC)Frankly, compared to those examples, your books seem to me packed with development and action ! I can't for the life of me figure how one would say that nothing happens in Local Custom or Carpe Diem...
Re: Favorite "nothing happens" book ?
Date: 2009-07-06 10:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 05:09 am (UTC)These books are a nice blend of human development and great great plot.
Tisha
Great Books where nothing happens
Date: 2009-07-08 12:53 pm (UTC)1) Thousand Cranes, by Yasunari Kawabata - most of the surface narrative concerns the tea ceremony in various forms.
2) The Ambassadors, by Henry James. My favourite book by this author, concerns the attempts by an American in 19th century Paris to intervene in the life of the son of a friend. Eventually comes down to power, domination and love. James is the supreme stylist, and the formal structure is wonderful. Probably my favourite novel of the 19th century.
3) Rememberance of Things Past, by Marcel Proust. Monstrously long, with very little action indeed; hundreds of pages go past in nested sets of recollections and discursions. One of my very favourite books of all time.