To ital or not to ital

[rolanni]

Yeah, I know; I said I was going to be scarce. Here's a question, though.

As previously noted, I'm proofreading the galleys for The Dragon Variation (currently not available for pre-order from Amazon.com, because Amazon.com apparently has idiots driving its database. Yes, I'm bitter.). TDV includes three novels, two of which -- Local Custom and Scout's Progress -- take place on Liad. The characters of these two novels speak Liaden pretty much throughout the whole of the action, and the decision was thus made at Meisha Merlin that none of the Liaden words would be italicized.

Come the new house and the new style. A lot of what I've been doing is underlining Liaden words to be ital'd in the final book. I've made some Rules: cantra -- no ital, because c'mon, do we ital "rouble" in RL? Delm, a'thodelm, thodelm, nadelm -- no itals. Misravot -- itals.

Now I come to -- binjali.

My heart says -- no itals. Certainly, Binjali Repair Shop is not ital'd. I'm not even sure Liadens have italics -- save them a lot of grief, if they don't.

What do you think?

Yes, I really want to know.

Comments

[micheledear.livejournal.com]

Binjali isn't even Liaden, is it? I thought it was taken from a word the Scouts used, that they got from some interdicted world?

Anyhoo - I don't think it should be ital'd. There's a glossary, right? The itals just distract the reader (speaking as a reader) - who do I write to so you don't have to ital ANY of it???????? I mean, it's not like I'm NOT going to be able to figure out which words aren't in english without the itals!

[enleve.livejournal.com]

I agree. I think the italics are distracting, and not needed for binjali.

Binjali

[doccolt.livejournal.com]

No ital for me. I think of it as a mixed establishment known offplanet as well.

[drammar.livejournal.com]

No ital is my vote. I'd prefer none at all, but definitely not binjali, since it's stated [somewhere] origin is not Liaden.

Now I come to -- binjali.

[bookmobiler.livejournal.com]

The fast answer is that it would be

binjali

however you choose to do it! :)

Sorry, couldn't resist. I think that it would be a distraction and you should not italicize.

Re: Now I come to -- binjali.

[klingonguy.livejournal.com]

Thank you, you spared me the need to post that myself.

[liadan-m.livejournal.com]

Do we ital 'rad' or 'hella cool' or other slang terms? It is as it is - no ital.

[keristor.livejournal.com]

I would say that, at minimum, proper nouns and titles are not italicised. So Misravot is no more in italics than Champagne or Liebfraumilch, nor is the Binjali Repair Shop, even if binjali as an adjective is in italics.

I would also say that sentences completely in Liaden in quotes are also not italicised, otherwise it is distracting.

(I would agree with others that they don't need italics at all, but if that's what the house style says then I guess you have to do it...)

[caoilfhionn.livejournal.com]

I'd also argue that it should not be italicized. How would they handle "ciao" or "Gesundheit" in dialogue? If your editor is being pushy about house style, you could suggest italicizing the first use--especially if it's defined at that point--and leaving it roman thereafter.

Binjali Repair Shop should not use italics, any more than Chapati Indian Restaurant on my block should.

[jerusha.livejournal.com]

I would vote no italics on "binjali" - it's a slang word. Yes, it's Liaden slang, but would it be italicized if it were English slang?

[baobrien.livejournal.com]

And who knows, if enough people read these books, someday maybe it will get picked up by the English language -

[star-gazersusan.livejournal.com]

I say no. Binjali is slang for something good or really good. So no italics. The name of a shop should also not be italics.

[stitchwhich.livejournal.com]

"Benjali" as a place - not ilat. "Benjali" as a scout/pilot jargon, ital. In that usage, it's not in the common Liadan vocabulary.

My ruler's edge says that 'cant' or 'jargon' deserves denotation of some sort.

[(Anonymous)]

I vote no italics, on the basis that it's no longer a foreign word; it's been locally adapted, adopted, and absorbed, even if it's not in particularly wide use.

Though I don't have my copies of those books in front of me, so the spot where it gets explained *might* warrant italics. e.g., "My friend is an otaku," doesn't get italics, but "That's from the Japanese //otaku// which roughly means a fanatic," does.

[sb-moof.livejournal.com]

I'll agree with everyone else, Binjali's no italics. When binjali is used as adjective, no italics as well based on the non-Liaden origin, but can see the argument for the other side as well.

[gilraen2.livejournal.com]

you don't really have the Liadan's speaking in Liadan. you have their speech translated into English except for words that don't translate from Liadan. so, for the most part, those "foreign" words should be in italics.

[muehe.livejournal.com]

Yes, but then I think thodelm, nadelm should be ital.
Cantra and Delm – those I can see as no ital because they are so common (even on Earth)

I guess if I sum it up I would say, did Theo know the word before her first trip off world?

[(Anonymous)]

Burton from Montreal

My vote is to use as little italicization as possible. It is annoying for a long time Liaden stories reader.

Also to update on the Amazon Canada listings for the Mouse & Dragon hardcover and the Dragon Variation MMPB. Both are still available for pre-orders. Hope the Amazon IT idiots fixes this issue soon. Did this happen to other books too?

CMOS 7.55

[johnhawkinson.livejournal.com]

CMOS 7.55: "Italics at first occurance. If a foreign word not listed in an English dictonary is used repeatedly throughout a work, it need be italicized only on its first occurrence. If it appears only rarely, however, italics may be retained."

By that guideline, which resonates with me, I would shy away of italicizing almost all of this. 57 occurances of "binjali," so don't italicize.

misravot: 1 in Scout's Progress -- italicized. 7 in Local Custom -- italicize (I think).

[gingerwood.livejournal.com]

I also vote for as few itals as possible. They are distracting.

[lornastutz.livejournal.com]

no italics
Lorna

[hapaxnym.livejournal.com]

Add me to the pile-on for "no italics". I can stand it in very specialized cases -- say, for "van'chela" -- but generally speaking, I find it very distracting, and it triggers my "calling a rabbit a smeerp" reflexes.

I was reading a novel printed about fifty years ago and the constant italicizing of words like "fiancee" and "esprit de corps" was driving me mad. It reminded me of the random bolding of words in comic book speech bubbles, and I kept picturing the characters making little air-quotes with their fingers: "Mother, meet Edward, my [oh dear, what shall I call him?] my "fiancee"."

Heh. Now I'm imagining Daav doing the air-quote thing: "Or would you prefer some of this ghastly inferior so-called "misravot"?"

[(Anonymous)]

Don't know if this would work, but - when Liadens are speaking in Liaden, then words such as misravot or cantra are part of their standard vocabulary. They shouldn't be in italics just because we're "listening in". That would probably also apply when speaking in Trade, since that borrows words from both Liaden & Terran. But when a Liaden word occurs in a converstaion in Terran, it might require an explanation and warrant italics. Whatever you can do to minimize italics - they're really distracting!
Mary

Another not.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm trying to remember what CJ Cherryh used to do with the Chanur series - THAT was a case of multiple languages and idioms. I don't remember many italics at all.

I would vote not.

Especially with binjali. That's been absorbed. Kinda like rendezvous in English.

BTW, you are going through those proofs like lightning!! Wow, you GO, girl!
Lauretta

[cailleuch.livejournal.com]

I add myself to the folks who say as few italics as possible. First usage only at most on the majority of words. I can live with whatever is decided, I don't find it as distracting as some people however

Binjali is in my understanding slang not Liaden anyway, so not.

[(Anonymous)]

Another vote for no italics, certainly not for binjali, in any context.

Minimize itals (prefer none, make reading _stories_ "bumpy" and slows me down). Fine for non-fiction, useless in fiction, IMHO.

Jim

[(Anonymous)]

Add me to the no italics group.

The only times I see a possible use might be (a) when Daav's deceased lifemate was speaking inside his head, or (b) to denote hand talk comments. And even there quote marks would do equally as well.

-Eta

[baggette.livejournal.com]

Laidens have different modes of speech for the various social situations......which every CHILD is expected to know,understand, and use. Extrapolating that information, I opine that NO, Liadens would not have or approve of the use of italics in relaying the nuances of their language. On the contrary, Liadens would expect the reader to rely on their own innate intelligence (and the writers' gifts) to grasp the lovely morsels of their beautiful language.

It might be like trying to explain LOL-speak.

JMOHO

[pedanther]

I don't think it means anything that Binjali Repair Shop is not italicized - plenty of business names use foreign words, and I've never once seen any of them italicized that way.

For the word itself in normal conversational use, I'm inclined to think it should be italicized as a foreign word, even when the viewpoint character is Liaden - because isn't it the case that it's a foreign word to the Liadens as well?

I can understand the argument some of the commenters have made that too many italics are distracting, and I consider "italicize only the first n occurrences" a reasonable compromise; but I do think that at least the first occurrence should have italics.

[(Anonymous)]

As I was taught, italics are used to give extra emphasis to text for some reason.

Thus I would disagree with using italics with foreign words "just because they are foreign". I would go with the "first time only" group - if extra attention is desired.

Being from the naval tradition, the only regular use of italic text would be for items such as the names of vessels, because those are titles and also that often ship names might otherwise be mistaken as just more text.

My two cents,
Brom

Late to the italics party...

[andyfunk.org (from livejournal.com)]

A bit late to the party...

I find the italics distracting. As a reader I dive into the world(s) created by the author(s), and words that are italicized simply because they may be "foreign," and not for emphasis, pushes me right out.

Italics tells me "this word is more important than the non-italicized words." If, when I finish reading the sentence, I don't immediately understand why that word was emphasized, my assumption is that I'm missing something important the author was trying to convey, so I go back over the sentence, again and again, until I either figure out that the word is supposed to be "foreign," or I decide that I'm just unable to understand something important and just go on ahead. Either way my concentration has been broken.

And in SF, isn't the entire universe being portrayed "foreign" in one or more ways? Why should only the obviously foreign words be singled-out? They're already the obviously foreign words -- leave 'em be!

<soapbox>
This is a point of house style that has frequently irked me. If the author(s) feel a word should be italic, or bold, or a larger size, or purple, or in a different typeface, or underlined, or printed in mirror image, or whatever, for whatever reason of the author(s), great -- that's part of their creation. (And with modern word processors, they can easily convey these artistic choices to the publisher, something that couldn't be easily done with hardcopy manuscripts.) But to blindly have to set the type according to house style, when it actually distracts readers from the reading experience, is something that should be eliminated.
</soapbox>

Re: Late to the italics party...

[robotech-master.livejournal.com]

Actually, what italics do is point out that the word is foreign, and not a misspelling or typo of some English word. In that sense, it actually aids reader comprehension by letting them know there is something special about it.

[robotech-master.livejournal.com]

I would italicize "binjali" as a foreign-language word, but not italicize Binjali's-the-place-name. It's a proper noun. I don't think we would italicize the name of a place named for a foreign word (I can't come up with any off the top of my head) even if we would, by convention, italicize the word itself if used in conversation.