In Which Yr Hmbl Hostess Has Not Had Enough Caffeine

[rolanni]

Bruce Sterling is trying to make a point over here.  Mind you, I’m not sure what his point is.  It sorta smacks of the old assurance from A Certain Male SF Writer that his female colleagues didn’t have to write fantasy!  They could, with only a little research, learn to write science fiction, too.

Lack of caffeine, right.

Anyhow, Mr. Sterling provides a list, lifted from a Must Read SF posting at The Galaxy Express, with the note that there is not a single male author appearing.  One of the authors listed is Steve Miller, who, last time I checked — quite recently, in fact — was male.  And an author.

When this was pointed out to Mr. Sterling, he amended his editorial to exclaim that there was a male author of half a book! on the list.

Since there were three books listed by Sharon Lee and Steve Miller, Mr. Sterling clearly can’t do arithmetic, either.

Back to the point of the thing.

If there is only a single male author of SFRomance on the list compiled by Galaxy Express, does that mean there are no men writing SFRomance?  I confess that I can’t think of a name — ref. lack of caffeine — but perhaps someone else can?

And!  If there are “no” men writing SFRomance, does that automatically make SFRomance an Inferior Form, as Mr. Sterling’s commentary seems to suggest?

Discuss.

Originally published at Sharon Lee, Writer. You can comment here or there.

Comments

[samcallahan.livejournal.com]

I'm not terribly versed in form, but it would seem to me that most Later Heinlein would qualify, by the standards of the list.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Actually, Mr. Heinlein's later work appears to squick out a lot of female readers. Friday especially is a lightning rod for vilification.

To be perfectly fair, I don't think that Mr. Heinlein thought was writing SFR, which didn't exist at the time, or even Romance. I think he thought he was writing competent women characters -- which he did. I also think he was trying to expand envelopes -- which he also did. Unfortunately, you can't always expand envelopes without pushing buttons.

[k-10b.livejournal.com]

I have not read all, or even most, of the books on this list. But, I must say some took me by surprise as SF Romance. I read SF in most of its guises and I enjoy Bathtub Books (aka romance novels).
I LIKE emotional entanglements in whatever I read, since most people can't avoid them. However, I felt my eyebrows rising at some of the inclusion on this list of SFR.

1. Kate Elliott's "Jaran" ... This excellent novel is about culture clash, first contact, technology, and - above all - politics. There ARE relationship elements, but not HEA, or even HFN, romance. Kate Elliott writes complex and tightly plotted books squarely in the SF genre, and writes about human emotions as part of the mix. That's not Romance, that's humanity.

2. C. J. Cherryh and Lois Bujold: really? If someone asked me for SFR, neither of these writers would occur to me. Maybe Bujold's Chalion books, but not any of the Cherryh I've read.

3. Ann Aguirre: "Grimspace" hit more SF notes than Romance ones in my lexicon. In fact, it was so relentlessly SF and gratuitously violent that I never read past the first one in the series.

So, I wonder ... what was the criteria for SFR for the person who compiled the list in the first place? Maybe it was SF written by women - for the most part - that involved emotional entaglement. The list felt much more SF, and much less R, imho.

Kristen
who has read "Saltation" from the Library, greatly enjoyed it, and is looking forward to owning and rereading it. when it arrives, no hurry. This weekend: Mouse and Dragon!

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

I agree that Cherryh was an odd choice for SFR, or even for Romantic SF. She does, however, deal with making emotional connections -- Merchanter's Luck leaps to mind, as does the Chanur series and certainly the Bren Cameron books.

It looks like Heather's original purpose (http://www.thegalaxyexpress.net/2010/05/what-are-must-read-science-fiction.html) was to woo readers who may be more accustomed to paranormal romances, to edge closer to the SF side of things. I may be reading too much into her explanation, so you might want to take a look for yourself.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

If you're using the loose standards that any SF containing a romance is ipso facto a romance, most of Poul Anderson.

[brock-tn.livejournal.com]

Lois Bujold has stated in my presence that Shards of Honor was intentionally written as a romance, and I once heard Jim Baen say that he bought Shards of Honor because it was "...a damned good science-fiction novel in spite of the fact that it was a romance." Which probably says a great deal about the state of SF publishing in those days.

[berneynator.livejournal.com]

Well, mostly I would agree with you, but the two Bujold books mentioned are Shards of Honor, which definitely focuses on Cordelia and Aral and pretty much ends with them getting together; and A Civil Campaign, which covers Miles' courtship of Ekaterin. Like the Lee and Miller books on the list, I can see these particular choices even if I would not have thought of these authors as Romance authors, necessarily.

Lois Bujold...

[(Anonymous)]

I think Bujold's Komarr, A Civil Affair, Winter Fair Gifts, and Diplomatic Immunity include sufficient romance to be counted, IMHO. (Admittedly, from a male perspective, Lois' treatment of Miles' relationships throughout the Vorkosiverse stories have been quite welcome, especially for those of us who are a tad altitudinally challenged)

Jim

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

I think some of those authors are crossovers from traditional romance writers. If so, one shouldn't assume that the corresponding writer is female -- male writers of romance almost always pick female pseudonyms. In any case, Bruce Sterling is asking me to play "Why can't a woman be more like a man", and I ain't gonna.

However, I shall always treasure your question because it led to the following dialogue.

Me, scanning shelves in bedroom: Do any of Tim Powers's books have a strong romantic through-line leading to a happy ending? Don't mention Declare, I haven't read it yet and I don't want to be spoiled.

Husband: Tim Powers tends to be more about bodily mutilation than romance per se.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

LOL!

[mbarker.livejournal.com]

Thanks for reminding me -- I just suggested:

ust for fun... what about

Poul Anderson, Operation Chaos
E.E. Smith -- Galaxy Primes, Skylark series?
Christopher Stasheff -- The Warlock in Spite of Himself series

Operation Chaos has a love relationship at its core -- and boy, is their relationship tested!
E.E. Smith -- both of those have some relationships involved. Admittedly, they are not very detailed about what goes on behind the scenes, but...
Stasheff, again, is based around a relationship -- between the interstellar agent and a witch (but it is not fantasy, exactly).

I know, I'm probably pushing the edges of what people consider SFR, but...

[(Anonymous)]

The first SF romance that came to my mind is the Warlock series. I also don't think it is what most people have in mind when they think of SFR.

Tanya

[shana.livejournal.com]

I think it's related to Doyle's Girl Cooties theory of Literature. http://www.sff.net/paradise/girlcooties.htm

[6-penny.livejournal.com]

What about David Weber's Honor Harrington series ...yes LOTS of explosions, but also a pile of angsting about her love interests!

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

Excellent catch.

[hapaxnym.livejournal.com]

Some of Theodore Sturgeon's short stories would certainly qualify; "A Saucer of Loneliness" and "The Loverbirds" leap to mind -- definitely sf, and the plots center around romantic relationships.

Bonus points for "Loverbirds" being

[SPOILER]

m/m!

[laurahcory1.livejournal.com]

How about David and Leigh Eddings's books in The Belgariad and Mallorean series? There are major romantic elements in all of them, including the background romances of the older characters.

Or Philip Jose Farmer's The Lovers?

[barsukthom.livejournal.com]

Ah, but those bear the black mark of being Fantasy.

[martianmooncrab.livejournal.com]

Men do write Romances, Leigh Greenwood is an example. There are writing partners who collab too.

[herbmcsidhe.livejournal.com]

I was just about to point you over here, and you already beat me to it.

[laurahcory1.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... then there's Neil Gaiman and Charles Vess's Stardust (Being A Romance Within The Realm of Faerie). Both male, and the word "Romance" is right there in the title.

[kimuro.livejournal.com]

Let me start out by saying that the shoe is on the other foot, imho. Men seem to have trouble writing relationships. No, more than that. Male authors in science fiction seem to have a hard time writing about the underlying "why" of people. Getting into their heads. That's a broad generality, I know, but that's what I see as a reader.

That said, I just went downstairs to our fiction library and pulled all the sf books written by men which have romance or relationships woven through the plot.

Gordon Dickson None by Man, Tactics of Mistake
Randall Garrett (with Vicki Ann Heydron) The Steel of Raithskar series
Joe Haldeman The Forever War
John G. Hemry A Just Determination (excellent hard military sf, very well written)
Arthur H. Landis A World Called Camelot series (soft sf with fantasy elements - a bit silly at times)
H. Beam Piper Lord Kalvan of Otherwhere, Space Viking

Chiming in on the Heinlein issue, I don't think that what he wrote were romances, more like fantasy. Sex fantasies.

[samcallahan.livejournal.com]

Would the Scalzi "Old Man's War" books count? The romantic plot seems to be as deeply interwoven into the plot as in The Forever War.

[jane-barfly.livejournal.com]

Our eldest was challenged to read a romance novel by his freshman (high school) history teacher (male). He took in Local Custom and Scout's Progress, and was told that they didn't count, because they were set in space. He told the teacher that it was all about relationships, really. Other stuff was wonderful worldbuilding in the same way that Georgette Heyer used worldbuilding for Regency Romances. When asked why he didn't just read Georgette Heyer, his response was simple.
"I prefer an SF plot to a mystery plot, whether or not romance is built in."

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

was told that they didn't count, because they were set in space.

Ohfercryinoutloud.

"I prefer an SF plot to a mystery plot, whether or not romance is built in."

Well said. Did he win his point?

[blythe025.livejournal.com]

I don't know what point he's trying to make either. It like there's a whole lot of logic disconnect going on.

[hakuen]

There seem to be more men capable of writing romance that doesn't suck on the Fantasy side of SFF. I can think of a few there. But on the SF side, it's like a wasteland of either very dry stories or very badly executed female characters, and likewise bad attempts at romance with them.

I've looked through a few "greatest SF books of all time" lists, and they're 95% stuff that bored me to sleep or pissed me off (mainly related to how women were treated in them). About the only book tending to show up on those lists that I like is Ender's Game.

If short story writers count, James H. Schmitz could be added to the list? They were pretty Nancy Drew-ish, but there was some good romance in there as well as a lot of the stories just kicking butt in general, in their charming old-school way.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

Good call! The Witches of Karres is generally considered SF, I believe.

[kalimeg.livejournal.com]

Steve is NOT a single male -- he is a married male.

Randall Garrett (with Vicki Ann Heydron) The Steel of Raithskar series

[(Anonymous)]

The Raithskar series was written by Vicki after Randal’s mind was, (alas), wrecked by cerebral encephalitis. He was unable to write from late 1979. The Raithskar books were all published in the 1980s. I believe he worked with Vicki on the beginnings of the series. But not enough to count as a co-author.

I’ve moved from the Bay Area and lost contact with most of that gang. But what I heard at the time was that Vicki and her publishers used Randall’s name to increase sales, since she was an unknown writer. Standard hearsay warnings apply.

Raymond

Re: Randall Garrett (with Vicki Ann Heydron) The Steel of Raithskar series

[(Anonymous)]

I thought they wrote all but the last together and she wrote the last one alone. Personnally I've always thought the last one was written in a different "voice" and it and the first were the best of the series.

Tricia

[serge-lj.livejournal.com]

Every month I eagerly await the latest issue of "Jerry Pournelle's True Tales of Romance"

Randall Garrett (with Vicki Ann Heydron) The Steel of Raithskar series

[(Anonymous)]

Writing tone is a tricky issue. On one infamous occasion, John Campbell Jr.’s story list for Amazing/Analogue was overcrowded with Randall Garrett stories. So Garret submitted a story under a nom de plume. He was delighted when Campbell pointed it out and told him, “Look at this story by a brand new writer. I wish you could come up with something that fresh and good.”

Personally, I never felt the Raithskar books tasted like Randall’s work. Not that that says much…see above.

As for joint authorship, look at the dates:
The Steel of Raithskar 1981
The Glass of Dyskornis 1982
The Bronze of Eddarta 1983
The Well of Darkness 1983
The Search for Ka 1984
Return to Eddarta 1984
The River Wall 1986

What professional writer will write a six book series entirely on speculation, without publishing them as soon as possible? (Yes, Lee and Miller did, during the interregnum. But that was because they couldn’t get them published. This was not Randall Garrett’s problem.) Invest all that effort in a series that may never bring in any money? Write six or seven books in the seventies and make no push to publish any of them until the eighties?

Writers don’t make a living that way.

Raymond