Question for those who read the Dragon Ship eArc

[rolanni]

WARNING!  The question as well as any subsequent discussion may contain spoilers for those who have not read Dragon Ship.  You have been warned.


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OK, having now heard/read this at least eight times -- what is it with the assertion that "Dragon Ship stops in the middle of a sentence/ends abruptly/doesn't end (and I'm so mad/upset/disillusioned that I'll never read another Liaden book)?"

Is it possible that some flavor of the eArcs don't contain the complete manuscript?

Comments

[shana.livejournal.com]

Certainly the Mobi/Kindle version seems to be all there. (That's downloaded, not emailed.) And the 'read online' version matches it.

Edited to add: so does the RTF file. I can't check the other files.

Note: these were not zipped files, if that makes a difference.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Thank you for checking.

I can't imagine that zipping would snip off a chunk of manuscript.

[mbarker.livejournal.com]

FWIW -- Just to doublecheck, I downloaded today and looked at:

Read Online -- Yep!
Can't email book to my kindle

Ebookwise/Rocket Format -- can't check
Mobi/Palm/Kindle Format -- good
EPUB/Nook/Stanze format -- good
Microsoft Reader format -- can't check
RTF Format -- good

HTML zip -- good
Ebookwise/Rocket Format zip -- can't check
Mobi/Palm/Kindle Format zip -- good
EPUB/Nook/Stanze format zip -- good
Microsoft Reader format zip -- can't check
Sony Digital Reader zip -- can't check
RTF Format zip -- good

They all end with Kamele...

Kamele sighed.
“Space is not safe,” she said. “I understand.”
She sighed again, and bowed.
“Thank you.”

So as far as I can see, we aren't talking about a simple mechanical broken file.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

So as far as I can see, we aren't talking about a simple mechanical broken file.

OK, my concern was that a technical problem had actually resulted in some of the books actually ending in the middle of a sentence. I couldn't figure out why the readers wouldn't have immediately gone to tech support with the problem, but sometimes people don't do the obvious. I'm very relieved that there isn't a technical glitch with the eArc.

"You didn't write the book I wanted to read" -- not much I can do about that, really.

[mbarker.livejournal.com]

That was my concern. I had the thought that there was a technical problem resulting in some set of readers getting a book chopped off in the middle. I mean, back in the days of paper, I have gotten books with a signature from another book (a wad of pages literally from another book), missing pages, and so on, and I know that the digital world does occasionally produce its own very special goofs, so it seemed possible. But that doesn't seem to be what they are upset about.

As you say -- I wanted a different book is not particularly reasonable.

FWIW -- I ENJOYED IT!

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Thanks, Mike.

[muirecan.livejournal.com]

I also admit to confusion. The main arc of that section resolves. The crew and ship are together. Sure you introduce one massive thing to head into the next book with. But it is no worse than the ending of "I Dare". By that I mean its big but it also is closing a circle.

The book then segues nicely into an epilogue with Miri, Val Con, and Kamele. And that section ends nice and neat and logically.

At best all I can say is that you don't wrap up all the story plots in a nice neat bundle. But I was trained by Clifford D Simak to not expect everything to end in a nice neat package. All those novels he wrote where the current tale ended but massive amounts of story remained that could be told in the same universe and he very rarely wrote a sequel to any of it.

But the key is that one felt they had stepped into a real living breathing story witnessed one small bit of a bigger whole and stepped back out. To me the Liaden stories have always felt that way. Some more self contained then others but still all part of a greater whole.

The best I can think of is that people expected a resolution to plots that you weren't focused on for this story. And so they missed the story that was told. Which is the Bechimo and his crew coming together into a fully functioning ship. [I'm avoiding spoilers in there since there is a bit more to this. ;) ]

[psw456.livejournal.com]

I have the ePub version downloaded directly from Baen - it has 350 pages and ends with the epilog. I got it on April 29th which was not the first day it was available if that makes a difference... It is hard to be in the middle of a sentence which consists of the two words "Thank you". So I also admit to confusion.

Dragon Ship Ending

[cindy wakeman (from livejournal.com)]

It tied up the story threads at a likely spot. Every one of them was left open for further developments. Did I hate it ending. Darn right I did, but that has been the case with every one of your books so far, and not your fault at all.

[reedrover]

My iPad version of the story was complete to the last page of the epilogue.

Comment chock-full-o' spoilers regarding "the story doesn't end"

First, we have Theo and Bechimo deciding that they did finally suit, but now they are on the wrong side of space from Surebleak. Will they get home?
Second, Daav is deathly injured and is stuck Uncle-knows-where to recover... maybe...
Third, and almost-randomly-for-right-now, we have a rift in the time/space/story continuum with what appears to be Jelaza Kazone suddenly appearing as a... child?... though all of those who follow the series know full well that it took a Clutch ship the size of a moon to move it to Surebleak a few short stories ago.

So yes, this was very much a Plan B kind of an ending. Everyone is spread across known space, enemies are attacking at multiple points, main characters are separated and in grave danger, and a bit player may turn out to hold the key to the plot in the next book... My expectation is that I need to tune in for an I Dare action book sequel to resolve the major issues and bring everyone at least within hailing distance.

[ariaflame.livejournal.com]

It isn't The Tree, it is a seedling that Cantra left there

[ceedee-x.livejournal.com]

we have a rift in the time/space/story continuum with what appears to be Jelaza Kazone suddenly appearing as a... child?...
No, this one is the seedling, which was sent with Cantra's ship as a deflection... I think. From the Crystal-book.... and out of the past.

[andy finkel (from livejournal.com)]

I got the ePub for the Nook, it seemed complete to me. IMHO, Dragon Ship ended at a good place to pause between Theo books; decisions have been made, players are known, and, while everyone's fate may be still up in the air, there are clear paths for the characters involved. For me, its a satisfying place to leave the story while the authors recharge.

Andy

[kalimeg.livejournal.com]

OK, all sorts of threads are hanging. Maybe I am just getting jaded, but the hanging things just seem to need another book or two. If you declared yourselves DONE with Theo, it would be badly ended; but I expect that there is one book or more to follow.

I've read worse abrupt and inapproptiate closes to books before.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

I've read worse abrupt and inapproptiate closes to books before.

I have actually read at least one book that ended -- not in the middle of a sentence, but in the middle of the book that was handed in. The editor just literally whacked the book that had been turned in, on time, according to contract, with a machete at the half-way point. Without, yes, even the courtesy of a call to the author to say, "We've decided that the book is too long and we need to break it, would you please write us a scene that will let the readers down easy?"

This kind of thing doesn't help a book, or the author's relationship with her readers. And neither does the assertion that the book ends "in the middle of a sentence."

[robotech-master.livejournal.com]

People exaggerate. I wouldn't say it ended "in the middle of a sentence". I will say that it ended right when it was getting to the parts I'd really been hoping to see in the book. Kamele meeting Clan Korval, Uncle healing Daav and (apparently) resurrecting Aelianna (and I'm going to be insanely curious about exactly how that works and how Kamele reacts for, I guess, a couple of years until the next one comes out). And then there was that bit with the seedling showing up that came in right to tantalize…

I think there might have been a bit of people coming into the book with expectations of finding those things out and then feeling a little disappointed when they didn't get to. Not your fault they feel that way, given that you never said what was going to be in the book, they just made a guess from what was in the last one. But when people feel disappointed, they can let their mouths run away with them, especially when they're not talking face to face.

Really, I'm spoiled by having come to the series after so much of the main plot was written out and having it available to read as a coherent whole. I didn't have to wait umpteen years from the third to the fourth book, or wait out two prequel volumes from the fourth to the next in sequence. I did have the wait from I Dare to Fledgling and what followed, but I Dare ended with such a classic "And the adventure continues" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AndTheAdventureContinues) twist ("It's your kids, Marty! Something's got to be done about your kids!"), that it didn't really feel incomplete. So having to wait a year or more for a Liaden novel is kind of a new experience for me.

But I really ought to be used to it by now, in general. When you get right down to it, there are a number of Baen authors who write so many different series of books that it can be years between ones in any given series. (And a couple of Baen authors who wrote books that ended in awful cliffhangers and then never wrote the next one. For example, Linda Evans's Far Edge of Darkness ended in a cliffhanger and was written 1996. I still feel cheated by that book.) At least you're actually going to write it reasonably soon.

If nothing else, it'll teach me patience. :)

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

I got mine on the day it was released and it includes the epilogue with Kamele on Shurebleak so I am convinced that it's complete. I suspect either some people didn't get the complete file, or (more likely) the story flows so well and reads so quickly that the end point feels like it comes too soon. Reading e-books can be like that, because you don't have the physical book in your hand to tell you that there are only a few pages left; the ending can be a little jarring when it's unepected. The story threads left waiting to finish themselves in the next book also lend to the impression that the book ends before it's supposed to. It's a trifle frustrating to want to know what happens next when there's no more book to read : )

dragon ship

[herc henderson (from livejournal.com)]

Yes I was disappointed that it was only 350 pages. 450 would have been more to my liking, or 700 for that matter. In reality I thought it ended as well as it could if you were going to end it. When you read on the cutting edge of a story rushing for the e-arc the day it is released you can expect to spend some nail biting months or years waiting for the rest of the story. Loved the book. Want more. Not going to whine.

Re: dragon ship

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Page counts can be misleading, though I'm startled to hear that it's only 350 pages, set. Let's see, though...*picks up Ghost Ship* -- 328 pages. OK, then.

Ghost Ship came in at 102,900 words -- 328 pages in hardcover
Dragon Ship -- 118,270; 350 pages, hardcover (per Herc)
Carousel Tides -- 102,000; 306 pages in trade format; 424 in mmp
Saltation -- 101,000; 325 hardcover; 444 mmp (453 w/Ghost Ship excerpt)

So, yeah. We tend to write 100,000- to 120,000-word books and Baen tends to make them into 315-350 page hardcovers. All's right with the world.

I frankly wouldn't want to write a 700-page book. I wouldn't know how to go about it; the whole geography of the narrative would be alien. I'm/we're comfortably writing 100,000/120,000 word books, so we'll just stick what we know.

[dhw.livejournal.com]

I think readers were expecting the Kamele/Daav reunion in Dragon Ship, and it didn't happen.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Yabbut, that's different than "the book ended in the middle of a sentence." That falls into "You didn't write the book I wanted to read," which is a whole 'nother thing.

[drammar.livejournal.com]

I agree with dhw that the downfall was in the expectations of the readers -- and that likely the lack of resolution to the Kamele/Daav storyline is what they were looking for. I was hoping for that, but am now looking forward to finding that resolution in another book. I figure authors are allowed to decide which story goes in which book.

And my guess is that they (the disgruntled ones) will still end up buying your next book, and your next one, and the one after that.

FWIW -- I got my e-arc approximately 10 minutes after it was announced on the FOL list-serv, and it is complete (wrong cover, but who cares about that in an e-arc?.

[muirecan.livejournal.com]

"That falls into "You didn't write the book I wanted to read," which is a whole 'nother thing."

I think this is what they actually mean when they complain about the ending. There are so many diverse threads and plots running this way and that that you couldn't touch on all of them let alone try to resolve them in a single novel.

I expect that which ever thread is their favorite didn't get enough time from their point of view. And they expressed that poorly.

[dhw.livejournal.com]

Yep.

Part of it I think is the medium.

If you are reading a bound book, it's really obvious How Much Is Left. If you are reading an eBook, it's a lot less obvious. If someone missed the word "Epilog", they run smack into the end of the book, and do the "bird flying into a glass door" wobble.

[cailleuch.livejournal.com]

I downloaded it for my iPhone the first day it was available. My copy was complete.

I thought it was your normal sort of ending. Some things tied up with lots of possibilities still left to be explored. Perhaps the people complaining were less familiar with your other books and wanted an ENDing. I prefer what you do, while I'm waiting I try to guess where you are taking the story. You always surprise. At the end of Crystal Dragon<\i> when Spiral Dance exited stage left, I asked myself if this was the last time we would see the ship. I was right for once.

I will patiently wait for more news from Korval, it is always interesting.

[deor.livejournal.com]

I confess that I'm hoping for a novella, or at least a short story, about Kamele's adventures on the way to Surebleak. How _did the scholar get a working job on a ship, and how did that go for her? The new Fans of Kamele Club (1 member and counting) wants to know!

[robotech-master.livejournal.com]

Seconded. Kamele is one of my favorite characters. PLEEEEEEEEASE e-chapbook her!

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

That's been on the list since we realized we couldn't deal with it in the book*. I will mention that it's a longish list, so no holding of breaths.


-------
*When we pitched Dragon Ship, Madame the Editor made it clear that this was to be Theo's book, primarily, and that it would not depend the Kamele/Jen Sar thread for resolution/emotional pay-off. We only cheated a little bit...

[charlie russel (from livejournal.com)]

Add me to the list of folks who'd definitely like to hear more of Kamele's story. A good fit for a chapbook.

[welhar.livejournal.com]

Except for Dragon Ship, I have read all of your books more than once and count myself a fan. I went over to the webscription site at Baen books to read the comments and tried to think as your critics did. Usually in series books, there is a theme and a resolution, even as lots of threads are left dangling. This book did not have one. If the theme was "Theos first command" then the book left off in the middle of nowhere.

[psw456.livejournal.com]

But see, I don't agree. This is a good place to pause in the 'arc" of Theo's first command - the crew is augmented, Theo and Bechimo have bonded, the trial loop is aborted and they are on their way back to Surebleak, where Korval has to figure out how Theo can "fly" without all the drama! Good luck with that.

[welhar.livejournal.com]

Yep- I didn't bring it up as my point of view. The comments about an abrupt ending to the book were over on webscription, so I was trying to figure it out. I do not believe it was a file download issue.

[bridget a wheeler-gehrling (from livejournal.com)]

mine is complete. If the complaining reader is not accustomed to your style of ending, he or she might have been left dazed and confused for a moment; but, a quick re-read of the last few pages should have set them to rights.
My only answer is that you can't please everyone. Your fans ADORE you both!

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Well, there were several readers -- at the Baen eBooks website, and a couple in email, with the "ended in the middle of a sentence" complaint. I was concerned there might be a file error somewhere, which, if identified, could be fixed.

Hyperbole? No fixing that.

[barbinbandon.livejournal.com]

Like others, I was very disappointed when the book ended, but that was *because* it ended. To be fair, I think we were spoiled by Ghost Ship, which seemed to advance more story arcs...and in a very satisfying manner. (I never read a story more than once and have done Ghost Ship eight times and counting.)

It does kinda sound like you're hearing "you didn't write the book I wanted to read" all gussied up to look like a different assertion.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

To be fair, I think we were spoiled by Ghost Ship, which seemed to advance more story arcs...and in a very satisfying manner.

LOL! And one of the most frequent complaints of Ghost Ship is that it's "all over the place" and "doesn't settle on one character" and "just skims the surface of too many storylines."

Everybody's different...

[robotech-master.livejournal.com]

There's no accounting for taste. And you can't please all of the people all of the time. And all that. :)

Dragon Ship

[catherine ives (from livejournal.com)]

I'm going to wait til Mr. Blyly sends me my published hardback edition of Dragon Ship. I trust that said edition will not end in the middle of a sentence. I'll trust the authors to keep that from happening.

[jonathan aldridge (from livejournal.com)]

My copy was complete. I did feel there was a lack of closure, to almost everything. Theo and co are left out in space. Win Ton is better, but we get very little of where that's going with him and Theo (and Kara). Daav and Aelliana are still left hanging (though there is the suggestion that Uncle is making them both new bodies).
Kamele is still trying to find Daav. The Department is still out there. Now there's the sapling as well.

I feel it needed one more chapter around the ending, focusing on the various people settling into the new situation, before going on to the new adventures. Win-ton/Theo/Kara, maybe a bit more of Kamele-Korval.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

I feel it needed one more chapter around the ending, focusing on the various people settling into the new situation, before going on to the new adventures.

You may feel so, and that's perfectly valid. However, as one of the writers of the book, I can't imagine how that could have played out. "One more chapter" would have had to kick everyone into motion again, when they'd all come to a resting (in Theo's case, read "less actively dangerous") point in their ongoing adventures -- and unbalanced all the rest of the narrative that had gone before.

Mind you, I'm sure there's a way to write "one more chapter" to do what you describe, but when you (universal "you") deal with books and stories, you inevitably deal with the limitations of the storyteller. You get the story that they can tell you. Which is not always the story that you want.

[charlie russel (from livejournal.com)]

I think the problem is that some readers have been conditioned by those mega-books of 700-1200 pages to expect all books to be that long. Whereas I just wish someone would actually EDIT them rather than let the poor author make a fool of himself. (And yes, it is almost always HIMself when it gets to overlong and rambling books, IME.)

There were no technical problems with the book, at least in Kindle/MOBI format. And there was nothing structurally wrong with the story or the execution of the storytellers. Yes, it left me wanting more. Yes, there are story lines not fully developed. (Kamele, for one.) But that's the nature of the story, and the point of this book is THEO, not everyone else. For others, we'll have to wait for a future book. So be it.

[lornastutz.livejournal.com]

I downloaded from Baen - copy is complete, 'tho like everyone else I want more.

There's been mention of Kamele getting together with Daav again but my mind keeps going back to the segment of the Uncle/Dave/2 (TWO) seed pods and TWO birthing units.

[robotech-master.livejournal.com]

Which is why I'm really looking forward to the reunion. I'm sure the authors will surprise us by how it goes, but Kamele is in the position of one of those relentlessly normal Alice-in-Wonderland characters who, like the protagonist from Neverwhere, take a wrong turn and end up in fairyland. Whereas the rest of Clan Korval, including (reluctantly) Theo, have come to accept the really weird stuff that happens around them, I suspect Kamele might have a bit of a hard time believing that the (presumably) resurrected Aelianna spent the last twenty-odd years living in Daav (Jen Sar)'s head.

Will events play out in the most embarrassing way possible, like something out of a romantic comedy of misunderstandings? Or will it be more moderately-handled? I'm sure that any predictions I could make about how it will happen will fall far short of the reality of the thing. And I love it!

(Darn it, why can't I just go into a coma for two years or something? :P)

Dragon Ship

[james parks (from livejournal.com)]

Haven't finished it yet. I'm about 30% through and decided to save the rest of it for the beach first week of July. I received Ghost Ship about two weeks before I went to the beach. Spent the week reading it on the beach so I decided to do the same thing with Dragon Ship. Sure is hard not to finish reading it though.

[6-penny.livejournal.com]

Mine was fine. That said with Oliver Twist I always want a little more, but that is a tribute to your talents as authors.

And I'm looking forward to 'Son of Tree' ....

Ending of Dragon Ship

[capricchio.livejournal.com]

Actually, I thought the ending with Kamele made perfect sense. (She said thank you because she understood how wierd the world outside of Delgado really was.) And I was wicked impressed with her sliding away from the DOI and working her way to Surebleak. We will await the short story on her adventures.
What we are forgetting is that Jen Sar no longer exists and that Daav was mourning that in an earlier book or short story. I suspect if Daav and aelliana get their own bodies, it will be the women developing the relationship. Kamele as the lead educator for Surebleak closing the loop from Anne Davis! :)
If we can keep Sharon and Steve healthy, they have buckets of stories of many lengths to share. And I loved that the saplingon Spiral Dancer (Crystal Dragon) arrived but does this mean the other things they were escaping can come through and pop out into the here and now???
Well done. I'm getting ready to read Dragon Ship again.