In which the author fails to outline

[rolanni]

So, last night, after work, I broke out a new! yellow pad, drew a black pen and a red pen from stores and retired to the sofa to consider Carousel Seas, Socks sitting as consultant. Since I've now heard from two beta readers to the effect that Carousel Sun makes sense, I feel reasonably confident in moving on with the story.

Now, usually, I work outline-free.  Which is to say, I'll sketch in some notes, some bits of dialog, some questions that the narrative ought to address,  but that's pretty much it.  At some point, I'll feel like I have Enough Stuff to start typing. I type for the first, oh, third of the book, then I read what I have and see what the threads are, and
consider where they're going.  From that point on, I'll make chapter-going-forward (or scene-going-forward) notes and so on until the thrilling conclusion.  This method is somewhat uncertain, and can become a little hair-raising in the face of serious auctorial illness or a severe bout of depression, but in general it Works for Me.  And, no, it's probably not how grown-up writers do it.

Having said all that, I will confess that I have worked from an outline once or twice -- for values of having produced an outline, which I then threw away when the story took a left turn.  After all, I'm usually under contract for a novel, not an outline, so the outline is, IMNSHO, disposable*.  From these early experiences, I learned that outlines (for me) are pretty much useless.  That scene-sketching, writing bits of dialogue, and being open to SFoG (Sudden Flashes of Genius) is much more useful to what we'll dignify as My Process.

The trouble with all of this being that, due to mostly having day-jobs during my formative years as a writer, I've been pretty much a Night Writer.  Brain turns on at 5:00 p.m. and we're off to the races.  Early in the day, I'll edit what I wrote yesterday, and maybe noodle out some notes, but the actual work happens late in the day.  This needs to change, at least somewhat, due to Reasons, and it occurred to me that it might make the transition to
Day Writer easier if I had a road map to assist my daylight-shocked brain.

And I sat there on the couch, with my pen poised over the nice, new yellow pad, with Socks, remember, consulting. . .and wrote down the questions left over from the previous book; other things I think need to be addressed, going forward...and flipped the page, thinking, "Outline.  It's not hard." . . .and got nowhere and, finally, gave up, because, yanno, how can I outline something that hasn't happened yet?

*sigh*

This would seem to be a bigger conceptual change than I had thought.

So, writers who read here -- outline or no outline?  And!  If outline, how do you outline something that hasn't happened yet?

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*I was at Boskone on a panel with a writer who swore that he produced 130-page outlines.  Which, full disclosure, seems nuts to me.  He then went on to explain that he'd gotten to the point in the current project
where he realized that the outline had misled him, and was in the position of having to tear out 9,000 words -- or possibly start the book over; it was Sunday afternoon, I was tired, and he was heated -- and the deadline was looming.  Which only serves to reinforce my own feelings regarding outlines:  They're only going to betray you in the end...

Comments

[ramblin-phyl.livejournal.com]

A 130 page outline is a rough draft. Rough drafts are always wrong and need severe revisions. So why not just call it a rough draft and learn about the characters, plot, setting as you go and correct everything on 2nd & 3rd draft.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Yanno, I have no problem with a 130-page excursion to meet the characters. My colleague at Boskone seemed, however, to be using his outlines to set the action in more-or-less stone, leaving the "meet the characters" part to the actual writing.

IMHO, this is just asking for: (1) all kinds of Gods of Plot problems, OR (2) a Character Rebellion the like of which the Alterverse has never seen...

[lagilman]

The only time I've ever heard of anyone's outline remaining set in stone, it was Greg Cox, who was doing media tie-ins that had to be approved to a fare-thee-well...

[ramblin-phyl.livejournal.com]

2) : Been there done that. Took 2.5 books to come to a truce.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Wow.

I'm a wimp; I'd've let them have their way long before that. After all, the characters live inside the book; I'm just a chronicler.

[lagilman]

I have long described my outlines as being like Google directions: perfectly accurate until they're suddenly utterly useless. That said, I like having an outline because it lets me consider potential plotfalls and stumbles before I'm actually ankle-deep and calling for a medic.

"I'm going to do this!" "All right, how are you going to get over the chasm." "Um...leap?" "Right. Let's reconsider that route."

The final product? Well, to keep the map metaphor, it was the same wilderness I set to hike at the beginning, and this is the finish I had my goal set on, but the view's considerably different, looking back. :-)

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

I have been known to write "here a miracle occurs" in pre-book notation. Usually -- note, usually -- the kink has worked out by the time I get there. But when it doesn't, it's really not pretty.

...and thinking about this some more...I can write down a summary of the story, insofar as, and then backward engineer it into chunks, then assign daylight brain a chunk. I'm looking, mostly, for training wheels, until I get used to this whole writing in the daytime thing. Then I could either edit in the morning before work begins, or later in the afternoon.

...changing habits is hard...

[lagilman]

Just remember: unless there's contract-money waiting on it, only you (and the cats) will ever see it...

[difrancis.livejournal.com]

I used to outline. Or try. Mostly it was the beginning, several high points that I knew were coming, and then the ending. I've been increasingly mentally resistant to that. I want to know where I'm going, but my mind says no. I also frequently had to change the outline I did. I often try to outline to make sure the timing works when I'm dealing with characters in separate places/separate plotlines.

That said, I'm working on a synopsis right now for a proposal, and it's killing me. Some things I know in crazy detail (because I've written some substantial chapterage for this), but other things I just don't know. I want to do hand wavium--and something big happens here--But I know that's not acceptable. So I'm trying to figure it out and it's killing me. ARGH!

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Now, see, at this point, I'd just throw in the towel and write the dern thing, while there's still some excitement and mystery left. If I've filled in every little hole and know how it all comes out, what's my motivation for writing the whole novel out?

[attilathepbnun.livejournal.com]

*offers calming tea and chocolate to all distracted writers*

[mbarker.livejournal.com]

I listen to Writing Excuses, a weekly podcast with several writers. One of the funny parts recently has been that Mary Robinette Kowal joined the group and described her process. At which point Brandon Sanderson, who has repeatedly described himself as an outliner, discovered that his three-page outlines for massive novels, really wasn't anywhere near the level of detail that Mary uses. But they both work. Heck, Dan Wells describes himself as a discovery writer, but when he describes his approach, he has a seven step structure and other pieces that he uses to shape his writing -- it kind of sounds like an outline to me?

Incidentally, in listening to various writers describe their outlining, there almost always is other stuff involved. For example, Mary describes her process in two 15 minute podcasts over here:

http://www.writingexcuses.com/2012/12/12/writing-excuses-7-51-brainstorming-with-mary/
http://www.writingexcuses.com/2012/12/09/writing-excuses-7-50-outlining-the-mary-way/

Oddly enough, 7-51 should come first, with 7-50 second. They released them out of order.

She starts with several thumbnail sketches of ideas. Short descriptions, a sentence or two long. She picks the one that seems best, and brainstorms it. What are the key elements? What's the conflict? What's the ending? What's the beginning? What kind of stakes, characters, and setting are involved? Next she develops a synopsis. A short summary of the story.

Having done all of that, she makes an outline. Basically a list of scenes. Bullet points, sentences, maybe a paragraph here and there. She goes over that outline, making sure that every scene moves the plot forward, builds characters and setting, and belongs in this story.

Finally, she starts writing. And as you point out, when she is doing the writing, sometimes things need to change. She says when she needs to make changes, she goes back to the outline and considers what needs to change to make it work. After adjusting the outline, she goes back to writing.

I think we're talking about a process, and what kind of training wheels/support framework/checklists/whatever help each person work their way through the process this time is variable. Heck, one person may shift gears in the middle depending on the book, their mental state, and so forth. So I don't think it's really a question of outline or not -- it's what will help you at this point in your writing.

[the wol (from livejournal.com)]

Good luck. You sound like your writing may have cat-like tendencies, i.e., it becomes active at dusk. Being a nightwol myself, if left to my own devices, I'd get up about 5 pm, work until morning, then crash. However, there are Reasons that the world refuses to let me follow my natural bent. I don't outline. I have a destination and try to herd the characters toward it, jot down scenelets, bits of dialog, etc.

[muirecan.livejournal.com]

From various writers describing their writing process I would say that less than 1/5th of them actually outline ahead of time. There are an amazing number of ways to construct a book that authors do use and I'm not convinced there is a magic perfect way to write a book.

I wonder how many people have sat down and failed to write an outline and figured that because of that they couldn't write?

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

See, the outline is a Test. If you can't think sufficiently outside of the box to come up with some way to avoid writing an outline while still moving forward with the book, then you're clearly not cut out to be a fiction writer.

[mbarker.livejournal.com]

Have you ever tried a mindmap? There's various freeware versions if you want to do it on a computer, but just drawing bubbles and lines on a piece of paper works, too. The idea is to put various thoughts down in bubbles, just as keywords or phrases, and then either draw out from those and add new connected thoughts OR just add thoughts and then draw in the connections. Try turning the paper sideways (panorama) to help remind yourself that you are drawing connections, not outlining. It's another option that sometimes helps.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Oh, sure; I do that. Long before I knew the plot doodles and connections had a formal name. I'm not a complete, "each book has its own separate and distinct shape" kind of girl, but I do find it useful to see which bit hooks into which other.

Not a writer

[muehe.livejournal.com]

Well part of me wants to say “don’t fix what’s not broken”

But then you are asking because you are trying to figure out if writing an outline will improve your performance without an adverse effect on your story telling. (My interpretation)

I am a programmer, not a writer. But they seem similar to me. When I was younger I was able to hold the whole project in my head and just sit down and write it. Now the projects are bigger and my mind is, well not as good. On the bigger project I research and rough out what I need to do. Some stuff is just a partial sentence; some is tricky bits of coding logic that I map out. Then when I code that simple partial sentence it becomes huge segment of code that has ramifications outside of what I originally envisioned and I have to re-code parts that are already complete.

See, a lot like your writing. But what occurs to me is maybe you need to organize your notes before you start writing. On page 3 of your notes you got this neat bit of dialog that should be at done early. I do that with my notes; usually it is just an arrow pointing up. Or a letter with a circle around it to let me know I need to find “A” and put it here. Sometimes I actually re-write my notes in the right sequence. It actually helps me firm up the project in my mind and I end up adding bits and pieces. Usually I am too lazy to do this, but the bigger the project the more benefit I find in organizing my notes.

So that is my suggestion. Throw out the word “outline” and replace it with “organizing my notes”.

Better living through chemistry?

[robert zonis (from livejournal.com)]

I know that provigil or nuvigil work wonders when helping me adjust to shift work - well that, and melatonin and valerian to help me sleep. But, if the "turn-on-writing-at-five" is a habit/ habitual response to a certain time of day, and a certain level of relaxation, rather than an "It's-five-of-the-clock-time-to start-my-writing-shift" problem, the pills probably won't help.

A rose by any other name...

[bookmobiler.livejournal.com]

I was at that panel and that other author really didn't convince me either.
I'm with the programer. Outlines are just one way of organizing your thoughts.Notes and dialog are perfectly fine if they work for you.
Just don't lose the notes!
As for work timing, if you really need to change try moving your start time back a bit on a weekly basis, or even monthly until it's either where you want it or you give it up as a bad job.