rolanni: (crescent)
rolanni ([personal profile] rolanni) wrote2013-08-12 11:50 am

Well, the bride looks a picture in the dress that her mama wore

So yesterday, I finished "The Gift of Music," for Andy LaPierre, who y'all will have the pleasure of meeting next year some time.  I seriously have no idea what to do with the story, and said so to Steve, after he read it last night.

"Why not try to sell it?"  he asked.

Which is -- wow.  What an idea.  I don't remember the last time I submitted a story, cold.  Somewhere in the last decade or more it became clear that I wasn't writing commercially viable short fiction and I just stopped submitting stories.  I didn't stop writing stories, because...well.  But I did stop submitting.

We did the chapbooks, and of course there's Splinter Universe (which I fear may not be a viable "market" for this story until sometime next year).

Anyhow, I'll think about that. . .a little later.  Today, I have a pile of chores before me, having chosen to devote yesterday to getting Andy out of my head.  I also have a full-blown summer cold, and all I really want to do is lie on the couch and watch endless episodes of "Maverick."

Or maybe not.

Before I vanish into the Land of Chores, though...I don't know how many of you follow Ursula Vernon's blog, where, a couple days ago, she was ruminating on the lack of less-than-bright protagonists in fiction.  Here's the post. Which I read with interest.  Ursula identifies three "stupid" leads in her post -- Buttercup from The Princess Bride, Bertie Wooster from the Jeeves and Wooster novels, and Freddy, from Cotillion -- and wonders why there are no others.

Now, after 'way too much thought, it occurred to me that all three of the characters Ursula identifies are comic characters -- The Princess Bride is, after all, a farce; the Jeeves books never pretend to be anything but broad comedy; and Cotillion is definitely one of Heyer's lighter works (though I must go on record as being at Freddy's feet).

So, here are my questions:  (1) Can you (yes, you) think of any non-comic novels in which the main character is not extremely bright, or gifted in some manner that makes intelligence into a non-issue?  (2) Do you feel a lack of, in Ursula's phrase, "good stupid characters" in fiction?

Have at it.

#SFWAPro

ext_12931: (Default)

[identity profile] badgermirlacca.livejournal.com 2013-08-12 04:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Flowers for Algernon.

[identity profile] welhar.livejournal.com 2013-08-12 11:24 pm (UTC)(link)
I always thought Freddie was a classic underachiever. The same thing for Lord Vorpatril in Captain Vorpatril's Alliance by Lois Bujold. There are plenty of characters out there with a profession as an auto mechanic, bar tender, maid, waitress, etc and, if the novel is action oriented, no one is wondering why they don't have a Ph.D. in nuclear physics...

[identity profile] ext-2110145.livejournal.com (from livejournal.com) 2013-08-12 05:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Possible candidates - they may be disqualified depending on whether you think their intelligence is a "non-issue" or they are, in fact, intelligent but just don't behave as such.

1. Charlie Gordon from Flowers for Algernon.

2. Jack Shaftoe from Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle.

3. Graham Smith from Resonance (http://www.baenebooks.com/p-344-resonance.aspx) by Chris Dolley.

4. Forrest Gump from the same-titled novel. I haven't read the book so not sure if it falls under "comedy" category.

5. John Coffey from The Green Mile by Stephen King.

[identity profile] bookworm1398.livejournal.com 2013-08-12 06:18 pm (UTC)(link)
To the two posters above, Vernon specifically excludes characters with mental illness/ disability.

I'll offer up Little Women, it has the clever sister and other 'not-so-clever but with other desirable qualities' sisters. None of them is really dumb though. As a side note, when we took a poll in college to ask which Little Women we identified with 100% of the girls choose Jo. Which explains why are so few non-bright characters around.

[identity profile] nojay.livejournal.com 2013-08-12 06:24 pm (UTC)(link)
I can think of a couple of SF stories where the main character, although not dull or unintelligent is an outlier in the community they find themselves in. _Tom Paine Maru_ by L. Neil Smith is one such story, the outsider and protagonist Whitey Thraight ends up in a human society where several generations of genetic engineering and "magic" education puts him at the bottom of the intellectual pile.

In the same vein there's Kornbluth's "The Marching Morons" where the time-travelling lead character, John Barlow is the least intelligent person among the Real People who runs things in the future.
ext_58972: Mad! (Default)

[identity profile] autopope.livejournal.com 2013-08-12 06:35 pm (UTC)(link)
Personal trumpet time: Anwar in "Rule 34" is dumb enough to think he's the brightest guy in the room (non-spoiler; he isn't). Yes, this was me noticing the issue and trying to do something about it ..
readinggeek451: plush Bassett hound (Dudley)

[personal profile] readinggeek451 2013-08-12 11:01 pm (UTC)(link)
Christine in Barbara Hambly's Bride of the Rat God (a book I adore much more than I probably should). Hambly has said she wrote that deliberately to have a stupid protagonist--and then had to have the viewpoint character be her much smarter sister-in-law, or it didn't work. Christine is pretty heroic, though, in her own selfish, obtuse way.

[identity profile] ariaflame.livejournal.com 2013-08-12 11:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh yes, and I adore that book too.

[identity profile] attilathepbnun.livejournal.com 2013-08-13 12:37 am (UTC)(link)
I've been longing for a sequel to that for years. I want to know what happens to Christine when the talkies come in ....
readinggeek451: plush Bassett hound (Dudley)

[personal profile] readinggeek451 2013-08-13 01:52 am (UTC)(link)
Yes!
pedanther: (Default)

[personal profile] pedanther 2013-08-13 02:36 am (UTC)(link)
Christine is the character I almost mentioned over on Ursula's blog, except I persuaded myself she didn't count because of Norah being the viewpoint character.

One thing I really like about Christine, considered as a stupid main character, is just how sympathetic Hambly's portrayal of her is. Stupid people are complicated human beings, too.

Main character intelligence

[identity profile] kumanooni.livejournal.com 2013-08-13 12:40 am (UTC)(link)
I'm not sure, but the one character who came to mind for me was from Elizabeth Moon, The Sheepfarmer's daughter. She was of average intelligence, for a sheepfarmer's daughter, but her world outside that village is something else.
timepiece: Page of Pentacles from Tarot of the Cat Poeple Deck (Default)

Re: Main character intelligence

[personal profile] timepiece 2013-08-15 09:04 pm (UTC)(link)
That's true. She is mentioned struggling with many of the things she has to learn, even reading ("I can just find someone to tell me"). She's not *un*intelligent, but certainly not academically inclined.

Re: Main character intelligence

[identity profile] margotinez.livejournal.com 2013-08-18 12:03 am (UTC)(link)
And Pac is one of my favorite characters who shines with honor.
terrio: (zen wing by lanning)

[personal profile] terrio 2013-08-13 12:42 am (UTC)(link)
Personally, I thought Rain McLeod, the protagonist in Spider Robinson's Starseed, was dumb as a box of rocks.

[identity profile] elizabeth luck brooks (from livejournal.com) 2013-08-13 01:34 am (UTC)(link)
Well, lemme ponder. Depending on exactly what you mean by "gifted in some manner that makes intelligence into a non-issue" (because a hero -- arguably -- HAS to be gifted in some manner in order to BE a hero), I've got these examples that jumped out after a perusal of my own bookshelves:

- Shadow from Neil Gaiman's "American Gods" is of about average intellect.
- Rose from Louisa May Alcott's "Eight Cousins" (and its sequel) is average or perhaps even a bit on the flaky/dumb side.
- Garion from David Eddings' Belgariad series is more or less average in intelligence -- he starts off pretty dumb, in fact, but it turns out that's more ignorance than actual lack of intelligence, but even in the sequel series, he's still only average, relying heavily on the advice of those whose intelligence exceeds his.
- Jonesy from "Before I Wake" by Eli Easton, which is a short story rather than a novel, but Jonesy's below-average intelligence is, in fact, a plot point. (And the writing is so beautiful, I just couldn't bypass the mention. Full disclosure: I work for the publisher and was the editor for this story.)

There are probably more with characters of at least *average* intelligence; I'm having parts of my house renovated and my bookshelves are mostly covered up so I can't look at them properly.

As for part (2)... No, I don't generally feel the lack. I consider myself to be of above-average intelligence (well, don't we all?) and it takes a pretty special skill at writing to sell me on spending time living in a character's head if it's not going to keep me guessing.

[identity profile] kalimeg.livejournal.com 2013-08-14 01:03 am (UTC)(link)
I can't get it out of my head that Johnny Rico of Starship Troopers is not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. Is he the one who got a C in Appreciation of Television? I think that is what the recruiter said. Anyway, he did not qualify for ANY branch of service that needed knowledge or skill.

[identity profile] implume.livejournal.com 2013-08-14 05:21 am (UTC)(link)
Papageno doesn’t count because he’s a side kick. Trouble is, Tamino is only marginally brighter. I never understood what Sarastro saw in him.

Hero Wantage is no mental giant. It’s hard to tell because she starts out so ignorant. She’s probably smarter than Sherry.

Meliara from Crown Duel. She isn’t supposed to be written stupid. But watch her get an idea in her head. An avalanche of countervailing evidence cannot change her mind. I can’t reread the books, she’s such an idiot.

[identity profile] rolanni.livejournal.com 2013-08-14 01:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Hero Wantage is no mental giant. It’s hard to tell because she starts out so ignorant. She’s probably smarter than Sherry.

Y'know? I hadn't thought of it, but it's pretty clear at the beginning that Hero and Sherry are working at about the same level, though Sherry has "town bronze," and poor Kitten of course has been stuck in the country playing Cinderella.

Of course, there's the scary fact that Gil is the Brains of that Scooby gang...

Me Too!

[identity profile] star-horse3.livejournal.com 2013-08-14 01:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Friday's Child immediately came to mind for me too, but I didn't originally say so because I thought, it too, might be considered one of Heyer's lighter works. By the way, I agree with Sharon about Freddy and Cotillion.

[identity profile] enleve.livejournal.com 2013-08-21 07:43 am (UTC)(link)
The main character in Hunted by James Alan Gardner is less than bright, yet still likeable. It affects the plot. There are comedic moments in the book, but it also deals with serious themes, and the character, Edward York, is not just there to be laughed at.

The private detective in Anthony Bidulka's mystery novels, starting with Amuse Bouche, seems to me to be a little dim, and somewhat flaky, but the book doesn't make a big deal of it.

Also, there are various main characters that start out young and stupid, then grow out of it. There are also various novels where the main characters do incredibly stupid things. I can think of a few examples. But I'm not sure that's quite the same thing.