On writermind and what comes next

[rolanni]

So, in reference to the latest PSA, someone asked this, seemingly simple, question:

Uh, you DO have one more "Theo book" coming along some day, don't you?

The answer to this question is. . . not simple.  Not only is it not simple, I'm not certain I can adequately explain what we're attempting with this sequence of five books, of which Dragon in Exile is the first.  Possibly, I could explain it. . .less disjointedly. . .to another writer (who isn't Steve), but readers and writers are separated by the fundamentals that bring us together:  writers write; readers read.

So, I'm going to try to explain what we're doing; apologies in advance if it makes no sense as you read it here.  We trust that the execution will be more illuminating.

. . .

Steve and I are now embarked on the writing of, as stated above, a sequence of five novels.  These five novels, in their entirety, are the. . .sequel, if you will, to I Dare and to Dragon Ship, in particular.  Discerning readers will have noticed that there are many people in play, and many. . .unsettled situations left at the end of those two novels.  You will also notice that there are several. . .Big Problems still on the board to be solved.

Solving those Big Problems is going to take the combined talents of All of Those Characters.  (Even Rys, who, when "his" book was pitched, was never intended to survive his redemption.) Theo, for instance, can't solve All the Problems by herself.  Theo doesn't even know what All the Problems are.

(We, ourselves, don't see Theo and her adventures as being a spin off books.  In our view, Theo is very much entangled in the troubles that were introduced in Agent of Change, and which have only gotten more tangled since.)

The only way that we can proceed, being the writers that we are, is to continue as we began, and braid the character and story arcs until we reach the Thrilling Conclusion.

What this means is that it's extremely doubtful that we will be writing a one character/one problem novel within the Five Book Dash.  The reason we pitched five intertwined novels is that we knew we couldn't reasonably cope with all the necessary characters and arcs in one novel, and to write another Theo novel at this point in the Universe. . .would be cheating.

So, we've broken the characters and the problems out into sets, all aimed at the Thrilling Conclusion.  Some characters will move through several novels.  Some will vanish on a mission, and not be seen. . .for a while.  This will probably produce some very odd books and some folks will grow impatient with us for writing endless stories where "nothing happens".  (Just got our first reader review of Dragon. . . in which the novel is described as being an unending series of lunches, tea breaks, and dinners in the snowy summer of Surebleak.)  We expect to see some readers lose patience.  We hope that most of you will stick with us.  We really think that we can pull this off, and that ultimate arrival will be worth the journey.

. . .that's all I've got.

And now I need to go to work.

Comments

Just a squee after reading the E-Arc from Baen

[rasmusb.livejournal.com]

I do love how you braided all the hanging threads & then neatly shot out new plot trails (I kinda picture them like spiderman's swinging webs -- one over there, then over there, then ....).

I cannot wait to see how/which threads you pick up and where they go from there in the second book of the five. :D

[bandicoot.livejournal.com]

You were kind enough to explain the basics of this to me already. I loved the idea then and now, being half-way through the third consecutive read of Dragon, I love it even more. There are SO MANY THREADS! (And, so many characters crying to have their stories told that you'd never have the time in one lifetime to write about them all.) Many writers, even very good ones, seem to take a relatively straightforward theme and write a long series, beating the idea to death along the way. This is not that, thankfully. I'm not a scholar of literature, but I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone even attempt what you two are doing.

Before Dragon, I would never re-read a book without waiting a long period until I didn't remember it fully anymore. If you'd told me that I'd enjoy reading something three consecutive times, I would have argued with you. And I would have been wrong.

I love what you're doing. Thank you both!

[martianmooncrab.livejournal.com]

I have my nephews current address now, and the korval site is still bouncing emails.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

I have my nephews current address now

Timing is everything! We mailed the package to your address this morning.

and the korval site is still bouncing emails.

Yeah, I know. I fear me we may lose the korval site after all these years. It appears that we need to find one guy who...doesn't want to be found.

[martianmooncrab.livejournal.com]

it was worth a shot, but what is life without a little bit of challenge?

[furballtiger.livejournal.com]

Well, I enjoyed it but can see the pt of the rather unsympathetic review cited. After I finished it the first time I thought "huh, nothing happened" (which is, of course, quite inaccurate). The shift from a tapestry made with coarse threads (each book a clear focal POV and a stand alone dramatic arc) to smaller gauge threads (a dozen folks all getting through a day or some weeks) is interesting. Idk if it will ultimately work as hoped, but I am along for the ride. On the plus side, I have an interest in attempts to create dramatic tension and story arcs that don't lazily rely on mayhem/action/horrendous trauma. Jane Austin managed tension very differently than, say, a Bruce Willis movie. Sadly, most recent sf/f/ya/etc (I read many genres) all seem to be drifting towards the latter. I'm not sure this book had all the things a novel needs (folks could argue what those things might be; progress, highs, lows, dramatic tension, character development, whatever). I'm halfway thru a second, more critical, read. And in a series of 18+5 books one should expect some "bridge" content. That said, the end result on this segment of text, as it stands, feels like more like "a day in the life of 12 people" than 'a story'. But, since it's part of a 5 book story, maybe that's ok! And, as noted above, I'm in for the whole run.

Oh, and there are chapter starts where I found the POV initially unclear, forcing a backup/reread. I'm not a fan of that, as it throws the reader out of the novel for a bit. Just a thought, that POV clues at the start of each section might not be as clear to the reader as the author. Then again, I read all night so maybe it was me! And this all sounds more critical than I intend; it's just because I'm thinking about the techniques and choices, *not* because I disliked it. It was still worth reading for me.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

I think that every book we've written, excepting, maybe, Agent of Change itself, has had the charge of "nothing happens in this book" leveled at it. People read for different things, obviously.

[furballtiger.livejournal.com]

Right, anything but "blowing sh*t up" is going to get that from someone. But SF is (has been) a lot more than action, more than endless remakes of Starship Troopers (which never impressed me, tbh). There's great sf from Bradbury, Clark, even Niven or Zelazny that has little or no action but is exciting and wonderful. The trend to equate sf and action drives me nuts, and I'm greatly interested in writers who can create dramatic tension, and a complete story that has emotional impact, w/o simply relying primarily on the one most obvious tool. Admittedly, a gripping full length novel w/minimal reliance on action sequences seems hard, but there are examples.
I dream of someday having the skill to make an ordinary day exciting reading...but that's a 1/0 problem, really, light-years beyond me.
On a tangent, if you haven't read it, Zelazny's little-known short "For A Breath I Tarry" is a lovely little pure sf piece, btw. He's more known for fantasy or sf w/ fantasy trappings, ofc, even though LoL was quite a splash "back when".

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Is that the one about the weather machines? I haven't read that one for a long, long time...

[furballtiger.livejournal.com]

well, that's sort of a match; machines, at any rate, one of which is named Frost. They are maintaining the world per the orders of the (long extinct) humans...It's online in slightly imperfect copy at http://www.kulichki.com/moshkow/ZELQZNY/forbreat.txt
Wikipedia has a nice summary of the biblical analogies.
The above url is even in the wikipedia page, so I'm guessing his estate doesn't have too big an issue with it. It's one of my favorite short pieces of all time. Makes me cry, in a happy way, tho. :)
FWLIW, some of the things I like about Zelazny's early works are things that I see also in the Liaden books; if anything, there are some stylistic and other similarities (it would take some doing to recap them all, but I do see some good things in common, and he was a heck of a writer).

[furballtiger.livejournal.com]

well, that's sort of a match; machines, at any rate, one of which is named Frost. They are maintaining the world per the orders of the (long extinct) humans...I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't read it before.
Wikipedia has a nice summary, including a link to an online copy of it (which, given the venue, perhaps means his estate doesn't have too big an issue w/ that copy's existence?), and a recap of some biblical analogies. I tried putting the url in but it got blocked as spam, which I can understand.
It's one of my favorite short pieces of all time. And reading it makes me cry (in a good way), even after all this time.
FWLIW, some of the things I like about Zelazny's early works are things that I see also in the Liaden books; IMHO there are some similarities in style and themes/norms (it would take some doing to recap them all, but I do see good things in common, and he was a heck of a writer).

[michawl dolbear (from livejournal.com)]

If someone can cite a review of I Dare which claims "Nothing Happened" please do so, we all need a laugh.

Same for Crystal Dragon, Conflict of Honors and Balance of Trade.



Mike D
Little Egret in Walton-on-Thames

[rosemary jones (from livejournal.com)]

As one who hasn't read the eArc let me just say that I don't mind bridging books and am quite happy to read about characters having lunch, dinner, high tea, etc.

After all, I'm a great fan of CJ Cherryh's Foreigner series and there are a lot of lunches, intimate breakfasts on freezing balconies, and formal dinners complete with attendance of the Assassins Guild in that world.

[slash-reader.livejournal.com]

very very excited by this description!

[nanette furman (from livejournal.com)]

read the eArc, loved it - will inevitably re-read before it is even out on paper. I am soooo bored by movies today that are endless, yawn, car chases, explosions, and people running madly hand in hand... for no reason, through unrecognizable environments. sigh. I have started a number of urban fantasies lately, and quit 1/4 of the way into them, because they were not Interesting. The people were not Interesting. There was no real Reason. for anything. Yes, Cherryh, you, oh, and the Rivers of London series (superb) are about all my consolation these days. There are probably a couple of others, but those 3 popped up to the top. Keep on keeping on. People who can't see what is going on.... well, that is them.

format

[mindsurfer1.livejournal.com]

Seriously, what you have described, is what I am liking about the current direction of the Linden Universe. That said, I have been 'in' since the late '80's. New readers may find the back history daunting. BUT. I think that somone starting now with Agent, and reading all you've published so far, would be in for a unbelievable adventure. Do not give up.

[ellenru.livejournal.com]

I've only read the free chapters up on the Baen site, but I recognized what you were doing just from that. I loved what I read and if the rest of the book is the same, I know it will become a sure-fire re-readable one for me. Given the "but where's Theo" brouhaha, I have to say that she's not one of my particular favourite characters, and while she may currently be in quite an interesting situation, I'm content to have you leave that on the backburner and let me know what's going on with others I am more partial to. I want a time of "fallout" and "aftermath" and people having to deal with the events up to this point. That's what I enjoyed in Necessity's Child and Roving Gambler & The Rifle's First Wife - the adaptation to new situations and trying to deal with having to embrace new ways of thinking when the immediate previous situation had ended.

Another author became a "don't spend any more braincells on this" person when that person did not follow through on what I thought deserved at least half a chapter after the set-up in the previous book and I was so disappointed it didn't happen. Not that I would presume to tell them what to write, but they became a person I didn't want to read any more.

[6-penny.livejournal.com]

I am so glad that you have a wide (and increasing) cast of characters. That is what makes your books such wonderful adventures to read. And makes the Laiden Universe so real. YA Theo is a good read. So are the Kompani. And Kamele. And Kareen. And Shan. And Jeeves. And all of the Cats. And ....*
And a whole bunch of people who haven't made it into this book but who I am confident are still alive and very busy in some cranny of this universe bubble, and who may wander into sight and delight all your readers at some point.
You get all sorts of points for having characters who are obviously living and evolving in their corners of their universe even though they are not currently 'in sight' of your readers.
Theo is only one of many and I for one am glad to see some of the others. (some of whom were my first loves)

* and I cant leave out the Clutch Turtles.

eARC!

[david tate (from livejournal.com)]

The eARC is out? How did that happen? I've been checking every day since October...

OK. Got it now. Time to go curl up in a corner and chortle for a while...

[polanka221.livejournal.com]

If I understand what you said, it seems that we can expect to see Theo, along with various others of our favorite characters, but not as the main focus of any single book. That would certainly work for me. I don't care if a book is "about" any particular character, as long as my favorite characters show up for more than a cameo appearance across the entire arc. I hope that is what will happen. Still, I am not self-centered enough, nor stupid enough, to try to dictate to an author. I will gladly enjoy what comes, and revel in the knowledge that I WILL enjoy it.

[ohlibn.livejournal.com]

Yes. This! Thanks for phrasing my own thoughts so succinctly and clearly.

[ironore.livejournal.com]

I'm just glad we're getting more Liaden books, whether Theo is in them or not. The universe is great, as are the characters. Now that Theo is Part of Team Dragon, a supporting role works just fine for me.

[thewol.livejournal.com]

One can only sit aghast and dismayed at the level of entitlement some readers exhibit. It is your (for "you" read "you and Steve") story. You are the only ones who know how it goes, and that, to me, is the whole point. You are in the driver's seat. I'm paying for the privilege of being along for the ride. It's my assumption, based on previous books. that I will enjoy the ride, and that it will take me into adventures, into interesting places, back into the lives of characters I've already met and will introduce me to new ones. It is my assumption, based on previous books, that it will be a rip snorter of a ride and a lot of fun. I am a spectator, purely and simply; that's all I'm entitled to be. But for my money, it's well worth the price of admission.

I am a big fan of C.J. Cherryh, and I like your books and your world for the same reason I like hers, and for the same reason people get hooked on TV soap operas: The constellation of relationships, past and present, and the way they interconnect characters who resonate with you in some way. These characters face situations and they react to them and deal with them according to their own lights. While their worlds may be different, the people in them still react in ways that we can relate to and identify with. They are enough like us that we can empathize with them as they deal with the situations they find themselves in. We care about characters because they are attractive to us in some way -- we recognize parts of ourselves in them, or they have traits we admire, or because we find them interesting. We feel friendly toward them. We want to know them better. We want things to work out well for them.

In both yours and Cherryh's books, the plots are driven by what happens inside the characters. All this blowing up of stuff and people shooting at one another and chasing each other about is all well and good, as far as it goes, but it's superficial and facile -- a child could figure out that the person shooting at the good guys is the bad guy. What of the minds behind it and the web of relationships and events that have brought things to the point of explosion? The appeal of soap opera is that you have to figure things out for yourself, based on the information you're given. You have to read the characters' motives and figure out their agenda for yourself based on what they say and do, just the way you do in real life. Just because they're at a tea party, doesn't mean things aren't happening. I shudder to thing what world shaking, and cataclysmic events of human history have been set in motion over tea and petits fours, or over a bottle of port after the ladies have withdrawn, or over cigars and brandy.

Losing Patience

[libertariansold.livejournal.com]

First, I hope the cats are getting over the absence of Mozart. Having lost a couple of cats over the years, I am sure it will take some time for you two.
Second, I would like to know how you dealt with the snow pile on your roof. It sounded like quite a conundrum.
Lastly, thank you for the explanation of your vision on how the five of five will be constructed.
I am one of those who lost patience--book four of Theo-the-brat-who-remains-totally-self-center end-and-does-not-mature, combined with the "pocket universe" book about Rys, et al (which I confess I never finished)--did it for me. You had created such an interesting story arc and such wonderful characters (my Favorites: Pat Rin, Inas Bahrain, Anthora, Shan, Priscilla, Liz, Chi, and Edgar), but... Nothing was happening. Your explanation of how things will slowly (given the number of characters) advance in a wave to the Thrilling Conclusion reinforces my decision to buy no more Liaden novels until Fifth of five is published. And then, if I am curious, I will work backwards to see how the Thrilling Conclusion resulted. The free chapters (which I confess I skimmed and did not read completely) painted me a picture of what the wave will look like. Not attractive to me.
I am happy to continue buying your short story compilations in the meantime. Even though they do not address all the wonderful back story possibilities you have created, e.g. Chi or Val Con as scout, Inas as Judge, Pat Rin as anything, Liz as a merc, Edgar as Edgar, etc., I figure I should be paying something as a form of Balance.
Regards.

Re: Losing Patience

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

The younger cats still keep watch. They're an extremely social pair, and Mozart was an important figure in the household, with his need for frequent feedings and medications. Scrabble, being older, has, I think, understood the fullness of the situation. She did one tour of all of Mozart's particular places, looked Very Serious, and retired to her chair in Steve's office.

You have said before that you've lost patience with the series, and in such terms that I'm surprised to hear you even bothered with Necessity's Child. I can certainly understand that one may lose patience with an author or with the direction that their work has taken, and subsequently abandoning a series. I've done so, myself. I haven't, mind you, felt the need to write extensively in their blogs regarding my reasons, because -- what would be the point? They're certainly not likely to abandon their vision, or change their direction, only to please me. You must have found this to be true, yourself.

If you're looking for new series, I can wholeheartedly recommend the Sebastian St. Cyr mysteries by C.S. Harris. The first is What Angels Fear. They're a sort of James Bond set in Regency England.

I don't suppose CJ Cherryh's Foreigner series would appeal to you, but I've found it worth following, and I'm hearing good things about Ben Aaronovitch's Peter Grant mysteries, which I intend to check out, the next time my schedule allows me to read. I think the first one of those is Midnight Riot..

Re: Losing Patience

[libertariansold.livejournal.com]

It is at least good they are mooning over his places, or crying out regularly, hoping he will reply.
Well, if a couple of comments on where your muse has taken you over what, a year?, two? Is extensive, then I guess I am guilty.
Re: Necessity's Child; hope springs eternal, or sprang, anyway, and it was a different case then, say Jethri II, where I knew what the BoT sequel would address, so didn't go for it.

[libertariansold.livejournal.com]

That is not mooning, and not crying. Sorry.

[ebartley.livejournal.com]

Well. _Dragon in Exile_ is a very different ... type of book ... from the Theo sequence. It is entirely reasonable for readers to like one and not the other. That said, I personally appreciate both styles, and I accept the word of the author that the plots' necessity forces this particular style. Ultimately, most readers will be better served by the authors following the dictates of the plot, rather than the dictates of the readers.

It's not at all fair to say that nothing happened. (Aw fudge - several sentences deleted; wholesale spoilers aren't appropriate yet.) Anyway, lots happened. But little to nothing has been resolved. One thread may have been resolved, or it may have merely sat down to rest and it will pick up where it left off (a favorable point for our heroes, mind.) The rest of the action launches plots into midair where they're still hanging.

I do prefer books that stand alone better than this one does, even in a series, but I wasn't expecting to have that taste fulfilled here. Liked the book. Mind, I like the *people* so as long as they're acting in character I'll likely enjoy the book.

I was especially appreciative of Kareen; it's nice to see her in this mode. I did not like her as a person before now, even though I understood enough to be somewhat sympathetic and to recognize that she had great value. Seeing her interact with Kamele is a joy.

[thewol.livejournal.com]

Thanks again for the recommendation on the Sebastian St. Cyr. Knowing your Georgette Heyer tendencies, I picked it out of your "Books Read In" list and checked it out. Started the first one, and was hooked. A very pleasant way to while away the time until the next Liaden book. I have not gotten the eArc of Dragon in Exile. I'm holding out for the dead tree edition.

In re the purr-bearing critters, I've lost two so far. Preaching to the choir: Each Cat Is Different. The litter brother to the one I lost quite suddenly one horrible Friday was clingy for a few weeks then seemed to accept it. As for the other one, I would, from time to time, find him (half Siamese and no relation) asleep in one of her favorite places. When I lost the litter brother, the little female I had gotten as a rescue in the meantime, whose big brother he had been, missed him a lot and haunted his favorite places for months. The half Siamese was like, meh!

Stick with it

[catherine ives (from livejournal.com)]

I promise to stick with it. too complicated even to read the other comments. thinking in five books is amazing. Nothing like a good lunch or tea break.

Patience

[charlie russel (from livejournal.com)]

Well, I never expected a standalone book at this point in "Liaden Universe(r) time". Too much has been going on in diverse story lines, and they must come together eventually. Frankly, I couldn't care less if "nothing happens". I don't need or want big explosions to prove something is happening. Characters are doing what they do, life is moving forward, and, in the fullness of time, the DoI will get its comeuppance. After all, why propose (and Madame Editor accept) a 5 book package if not because it would take 5 books to tell that part of the story.

Personally, I'm quite happy to read and reread the books as they come out, as I keep finding out new things as I read them.

And, speaking of reading, I highly recommend the Ben Aaronovitch series. I didn't expect to like it, but was immediately pulled in to the characters and the premise and was captivated. (And, for those who like audio books, the readings by Kobna Holdbrook-Smith for Audible are wonderful and add to the stories.)

[alfreda89.livejournal.com]

Oh, is this familiar, having just published a Bridge book.

Go forth and conquer!

[sharon murphy karpierz (from livejournal.com)]

I thought that answer was quite clear and straightforward.

My only complaint was that it seemed choppy, compared to the previous books, but when you are covering so many different threads and characters and trying to bring them all along at the same pace, choppy is inevitable. It only bothered me for the first few switches and then the rhythm of the book was established and it braided nicely.

But let me just say, Wow! I am impressed by the amount of daggers in the air right now. Just keep juggling.