How Much is Too Much?

[rolanni]

Today's question for the group mind: How much editing is Enough; how much is Too Much; and d'ye ever crave more?

kinzel and I are ...fortunate, I suppose the word is... in generally being edited lightly. This comes with its own set of terrors, of course, and it's not at all unknown for us to impose upon friends to beta-read our latest novel and ask them to Do Their Worst.

However, out there in ListWorld, I've been reading tales from writers -- many of them multi-published authors who clearly know what they're doing -- whose editors edit their proposals, to the extent of not letting them continue on what I consider to be the Real Work -- that would be, writing the book -- until the proposal is up to the editor's standard. This seems beyond foolish to me, but what do I know? My feelings about proposals are ambiguous at best.

Comments

[pbray.livejournal.com]

I have a wide streak of contrary in my nature, so if I had an editor who felt compelled to offer detailed editorial advice on a proposal I'd sent in, my reaction would probably be to chuck the entire idea out the window.

Not to say that all of my proposals have been universally loved by my editors. The original proposal for THE FIRST BETRAYAL was for one book with a possible sequel. The feedback from my editor was that I was being too cautious, and that I had a great story idea that deserved to be fully explored. Basically I needed to think bigger, if I wanted to move my career forward. I sulked for a bit, but I knew she was right.

Going back to the wordprocessor, I redid the proposal as a three book series by opening up the story lines, bringing a couple secondary characters front and center, and escalating the stakes of the conflict. I sent this off to my editor who promptly said "Yea, verrily" and offered me a nice contract.

If she'd insisted that I take the story in a certain direction, I would have felt extremely uncomfortable. But her basic direction was "make this bigger." It was up to me to decide how I wanted to do this. And in the end I'm glad she gave me that push.

[kateelliott.livejournal.com]

Editing the proposal would be beyond my comfort level. It's still MINE, at that point. I am not ready to let people in yet.

Anyway, a proposal for me is always just a vague marker of what I might eventually turn in.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

a proposal for me is always just a vague marker of what I might eventually turn in.

Yes, and yes. Which is why I find the whole "editing the proposal" scenario so ...macabre. I mean, surely editors know that proposals are just, well -- guidelines....

[papersky.livejournal.com]

Me too.

The very idea makes me want to go and hide under the bed.

I usually write the first 20,000 words of the book, aka "the easy bit" before doing the proposal anyway.

[janni.livejournal.com]

Editing the proposal would be a little uncomfortable for my own work, though I have done it for work for hire, mostly because I'm not convinced the proposal tells much about the final story anyway.

But editing the actual text--I mostly enjoy that. Especially if the edits make the story stronger. Kids book editors tend to edit a lot more than adult ones, so two or three editorial rounds is not at all out of question.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Editing the proposal would be a little uncomfortable for my own work, though I have done it for work for hire

We have also had extensive editorial input into the front-end of work done for hire. This strikes me as only fair, since the editor is in that case paying us to write their vision, and we want to be sure to have it nailed down at all the corners before we start, in order to avoid Unpleasant Surprises(tm).

Especially if the edits make the story stronger.

No question that, as a friend says, a good editor is worth six months.

[od-mind.livejournal.com]

In cringing humility, I meekly note that I and several of my friends and relations, avid fans of all things Liaden each, have agreed for some time now that the "very lightly edited" nature of the books shows clearly, and not always to advantage.

[od_mind kowtows 9 times.]

In general, your books seem to us exceptionally strong at the most micro and most macro levels -- details and dialog at the one extreme, grand story arcs and The Fundamental Interconnectedness of All Things at the other. In between... well, part of the job of a good editor is to now and again say "I see what you are doing, and why you are doing it, but *how* you have done it is inadequate and unworthy. Please try again."

I would not worry that your project ideas and worldbuilding would be in any danger from more demanding editors; nor would your prose and dialog (Goddess preserve them). Mid-level plot mechanics, on the other hand, might indeed prompt the occasional butting of heads. Or so it seems to us.

I crave your indulgence for this semi-solicited criticism, and urge you to believe that I remain

Your most humble and obedient servant, Ma'am.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

[...] have agreed for some time now that the "very lightly edited" nature of the books shows clearly, and not always to advantage.

You will note that I am myself somewhat ambivalent about the issue of light editing -- thus the continuing imposition on our friends and colleagues. We do not consider ourselves above error.

I would not worry that your project ideas and worldbuilding would be in any danger from more demanding editors; nor would your prose and dialog (Goddess preserve them).

It is possible that you overestimate the encompassing virtue of more demanding editors. I offer Carpe Diem as worthy of study. It was handed in with an ending which we knew was less-than-perfect, but we were out of time and ideas, so we sent it in.

As we had hoped, our editor (who was demanding, indeed, and possessed of a wonderful mind for a detail) did have some suggestions for repairing the ending (which we disagreed with, by the way, but which sparked the idea for the Big Finale which is now in place -- so, all honor to her). She also insisted that we remove a subplot (in which Pat Rin begins his run), in the interests of bringing "closure" to the "trilogy." This particular change -- a deal-breaker -- was, in my considered opinion, detrimental to the overall shape of the story arc, and contributed a great deal to the ...very odd... structure of I Dare. Possibly a less light-handed editor could have helped us with those particular problems of structure -- or not.

Mid-level plot mechanics, on the other hand, might indeed prompt the occasional butting of heads.

Could you be more specific regarding these mid-level plot mechanics?

Crystal Soldier

[jack_calls_dances]

I don't know if editing would have made a difference in this or not, but....

My fiancee and I have now both read CS -- she's read it once and I've read it twice. Even after the second time, I was still left with questions, the answers to which seemed perfectly clear to the characters, but not to the reader. In particular: What was Jela's mission? Yes, he's supposed to be getting in contact, but why is he doing what he's doing? Jela's storyline in general left me with many unanswered questions. Perhaps they're going to be answered in the next book, but it felt like there were things that were either cut from this one or just left out that might should have been added or left in.

Re: Crystal Soldier

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Hm.

See, I don't think being "left with questions" is a Bad Thing at the end of a novel, as long as the Whole Point of the Book isn't left a mystery. With Crystal Soldier specifically, you have to remember that it's the first half of a Really Big Book, so it might be that your questions will be answered in the second half. Or not.

Re: Crystal Soldier

[jack_calls_dances]

I suppose that depends on what the Whole Point of the Book was. If it was to be a self sufficient story outside of the other Liaden books, or an entry point for the other books, I'm not sure it made it -- too many questions of what the characters' motivations were (though these may indeed be answered in the next book, which I eagerly await). For me, as a reader of the other books, it answered a number of questions and started putting a bunch of previously un-assembeled pieces together for me. I was just left at the end of the book thinking that there were things missing....I'll be glad to let you know whether those pieces are found once I read Crystal Dragon

Re: Crystal Soldier

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

I suppose that depends on what the Whole Point of the Book was.

To tell an engrossing story as well as we could, mostly; and to honor promises made.

[ctate.livejournal.com]

I suppose that since I'm one of the friends-and-relations that od_mind alluded to having complained about some qualities of the books, I should step in. I'm having trouble phrasing things in a way that is not going to sound hostile, though. Be warned, I guess, although I wasn't trying to attack you; i was bitching aloud about what I saw as missed potential. (Oh, how insulting it is to tell someone that you think they have potential...!)

I'm going to quote here from a mailing-list thread in which I wondered about editors' roles in the writing-and-publication process:

Publishing industry question: whose job is it to find & address these kinds of flaws? Improbable interpersonal conflict; strong reliance on deus ex machina in plot construction; uneven characterization; scenes out of place and/or insufficiently connected to the rest of the book? I have a persistent feeling that these books are, more than anything else, badly -edited-...

Harsh, I know, and all of it certainly arguable (and argued indeed, in following discussion), but it's the paragraph that kicked off the whole discussion, so it should probably stand as written. It was the culmination of a thread that started out with me moaning about all the various things that Really Bothered Me about I Dare.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

whose job is it to find & address these kinds of flaws? Improbable interpersonal conflict; strong reliance on deus ex machina in plot construction; uneven characterization; scenes out of place and/or insufficiently connected to the rest of the book?

The buck stops with the writer. It is truly said -- and often -- that a good editor is worth six months (those being the six months that, were there world enough and time, the finished manuscript would cool in a nice, dark drawer before the author has it out to do a final in-depth cold read-and-edit). However, if the writers have chosen to tell a flawed story, or a story that is beyond their skill, and/or have misstepped so that the veil of Disbelief is dropped -- that's our fault, and no getting 'round it.

That said (insert evil grin here) -- we do occasionally deliberately put scenes out of order. There are a couple of actual craft reasons for doing this -- for instance, when we want to show the same action from the perspective of two different viewpoints. Sometimes, though, we Just Get Muddled. I Dare -- see discussion above re Carpe Diem -- is notable for the very odd shape of its narration. Given the ground we had to cover, and working with the handicap of needing to introduce a Major Player all at once, instead of working him naturally into the flow of Carpe Diem and Plan B, we did the best we could. Possibly, we could've done better, but probably not Right Then. It is, alas, a truism that one can only write the best book one is capable of writing NOW.

I do like to think that our characterization is usually pretty good, and the relationships not so much improbable as interesting. But -- tastes vary. There are people out there who find Thomas Convenant to be an entirely believable character. There are people who do not believe in partner-bonding; there are those who abhor love stories, believing that they feed into the subjugation of women. I'm thinking that for every person who finds a character and their relationships true there are at least two who find the same character and relationships false. See Thomas Covenant, above *g*

[ctate.livejournal.com]

[Digressing for a moment into specific critique: I agree that your characterizations are usually very good indeed; that's why certain ... variations bothered me so much in I Dare. My problem wasn't who the characters were, but rather that they were not consistently portrayed.]

Is it never the editor's job to say "this isn't ready; fix it"? I would have (naively?) thought that the single most important difference between self-publishing and not.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Is it never the editor's job to say "this isn't ready; fix it"?

Sure it is. But the editor's name doesn't go on the book, and our book is only One of Many that a particular editor is responsible for. Though I'm sure conscientious editors try to give equal time to all their children, the reality is that books which are Good Enough will get less attention than books that Really Need Help, and High Profile books.

[od-mind.livejournal.com]

You will note that I am myself somewhat ambivalent about the issue of light editing -- thus the continuing imposition on our friends and colleagues. We do not consider ourselves above error.

I hope I didn't sound like I was suggesting such a thing.

It is possible that you overestimate the encompassing virtue of more demanding editors. I offer Carpe Diem as worthy of study. It was handed in with an ending which we knew was less-than-perfect, but we were out of time and ideas, so we sent it in.

More editing is not a panacaea; more good editing is a big help, though. See below.

As we had hoped, our editor (who was demanding, indeed, and possessed of a wonderful mind for a detail) did have some suggestions for repairing the ending (which we disagreed with, by the way, but which sparked the idea for the Big Finale which is now in place -- so, all honor to her).

OK, there's the plus side...

She also insisted that we remove a subplot (in which Pat Rin begins his run), in the interests of bringing "closure" to the "trilogy."

...and there's the minus. This was (as I'm sure you agree) a hideously bad decision. One of the glaring errors that we had hoped "good editing" might have fixed was the obvious mismatch of timelines between Pat Rin on Surebleak and events on Lytaxin. There simply isn't enough time for the events and character changes depicted to have occurred. Worse yet, there wasn't enough face time available for Pat Rin in I Dare to do justice to his story. There are holes in it -- not factual holes, but pacing holes, development holes, the convincing details and sidebars that sell the reality of the story.

My brother interpreted that as "I Dare should have been 2 books, since it damaged both stories by compressing them too much." It looks like he was right, but not in the way he thought.

Worse yet, this was clearly a commercial (rather than artistic) decision.
This particular change -- a deal-breaker -- was, in my considered opinion, detrimental to the overall shape of the story arc, and contributed a great deal to the ...very odd... structure of I Dare. Possibly a less light-handed editor could have helped us with those particular problems of structure -- or not.

Could you be more specific regarding these mid-level plot mechanics?

I could, if you like. I'm not sure how deeply you want to get into that in this forum. I could send more extensive comments by email, if you're interested. Or I could just summarize here.

In general, the problems we've observed come in a few main flavors:
1. failure of parsimony
2. failure of story balance
3. awkward causation

As I say, I'm happy to go into more detail if you would like.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

I could send more extensive comments by email, if you're interested.

This may not be worth your time, but if you'd like to send difficulties that seem to you to be recurring, by email -- yes, I'd be interested. Obviously, I Dare is written and stands, or falls, on its merits, so comments specific to that work are not likely to be as helpful.

[od-mind.livejournal.com]

Obviously, I Dare is written and stands, or falls, on its merits, so comments specific to that work are not likely to be as helpful.

I'm not sure I understand that. I would have thought that specific quibbles and complaints (i.e. "when you did this, I disliked it for that reason") would be more useful, even in hindsight, than vague generalities.

Remember, the context here is "we love almost everything about these works, and the things we don't like seem to us like they were avoidable within the story being told".

When you say the work "stands or falls on its merits", to my ears it sounds like you think of it as an integral whole that could not have been otherwise without being a wholly different book. I don't see that. I think it could have been the same story -- the same characters, the same plot, the same major events, the same motivations, almost exactly the same dialog -- and yet (this is hubris, I know) improved by a little bit of additional work on those seemingly-avoidable look-to-us-like-flaws.

(On the other hand, if all you mean is "it's finished and done with", that's fine and understood -- but that doesn't mean there are no lessons to be learned from our reactions to its various aspects.)

I'll try to assemble a coherent presentation with concrete examples, and send it along to rolanni@korval.com, or such other address as you prefer.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I understand that. I would have thought that specific quibbles and complaints

Hm. The trouble with specifics is that -- they're specific. And to me, each story is individual, in structure and in process. I realize that it may not seem so to you, but there you have it. That's why I ask for recurring quibbles, because those are more likely to be an error of craft -- which I can do something about -- rather than an infelicity of one specific work.

When you say the work "stands or falls on its merits", to my ears it sounds like you think of it as an integral whole that could not have been otherwise without being a wholly different book.

No, all I mean to say is that I can't fix that particular work now. It's been accepted, it's been published -- it Is, warts and all. The only thing I can do is try to improve my own skill for future work.

I'll try to assemble a coherent presentation with concrete examples, and send it along to rolanni@korval.com,

Thank you.

[od-mind.livejournal.com]

Hm. The trouble with specifics is that -- they're specific. And to me, each story is individual, in structure and in process.

Yes, but... the problem is not with the story, as I understand the word, or the structure of the story. It's with certain choices made in the telling of the story. Specifically, choices about how certain necessary actions or scenes are brought to pass.

I started to include a long example of what I mean, but I'll save it for the email. It may take me a few days to put everything together.

No, all I mean to say is that I can't fix that particular work now. It's been accepted, it's been published -- it Is, warts and all. The only thing I can do is try to improve my own skill for future work.

Exactly. If the problem is that you see the warts but don't know how to avoid them, I can't help. If the problem is that you don't agree that [points at a particular plot device] is a wart, then I can't help. If the problem is that you didn't notice a certain wart, and no editor brought it to your attention, then maybe I can.

[kinzel.livejournal.com]

I'll be interested in seeing your reaction to Sword of Orion...
and also, have you read our novella Master Walk?

[od-mind.livejournal.com]

I'll be interested in seeing your reaction to Sword of Orion...

I'll be delighted to read it :-)

also, have you read our novella Master Walk?

I have not, alas. I should note that my friends who have commented on the editing in the Liaden Universe(R) books have only read your novels, and in some cases only the 7 Korval novels.

[klingonguy.livejournal.com]

have you read our novella Master Walk?

I have not, alas.

Ah, then you're in for a treat! While I'm a true fan of Lee & Miller characterization, I find they shine brightest when contrasting their human characterizations with aliens. I want the sequel to Master Walk, and on the Korval side of things, I want more Turtles!