A poll! How Long is too Long?

[rolanni]

We -- which is to say I -- still receive notes from people who Suddenly! Realize! that they haven't received their subscriber copy of either Saltation or Fledgling.

I personally happen to think that we're 'way beyond the time when we can reasonably be expected to keep mailing books out. But! It's a well-known fact that I'm hard on people, and meanly expect unreasonably hard things like answering email, or responding to a postcard begging for a good address, or paying attention to InfoDumps.

That being the case, you -- yes, you -- get to help me decide what's fair and humane.


[Poll #1668186]

Comments

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

If you've already received money for a book, you should ship the book or return the money. However, more than six months (barring lots of disasters) seems like a good cut-off time for shipping to me.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Actually, we didn't receive money for a book. The book was a thank-you present for folks who donated $25 or more. Some people take that to mean that they bought a book; others take it to mean that they were contributing to the writing of the book.

...which is just one of about a million reasons why I'll need A LOT of convincing to ever do a storyteller's bowl project again.

[jelazakazone.livejournal.com]

I feel like a year is generous. I can see how a few people might have circumstances that could cause distraction, but really, if it's been over a year, I think the person should at the very least pay shipping at that point.

I think I sort of felt like getting the book was a bonus. I seem to recall when we contributed the first time that I felt like I was contributing to an online project and the book was really just a cherry on top, so to speak.

[katmoonshaker.livejournal.com]

I agree with requiring them to pay for shipping given that they took so long in responding. The only reason I could see for the delay would be things like "an act of God/dess", however given that your husband just had surgery I feel that they should make a good faith effort to pay for the shipping.

[jhetley.livejournal.com]

Something else -- you da judge!

Seriously, what cutoff date can you (and the cats) sleep with?

[pgranzeau.livejournal.com]

How does it occur that people who contributed to Fledgling haven't long since received their copies?

[kinzel.livejournal.com]

How does it occur?

Failure to reply to confirmation emails, failure to see shipping notices in any of the blogs/mailing lists/Facebook status reports related to Lee & Miller, usually followed by failure to reply to post cards mailed to the snailmail address of record?

Additionally some are mailed and never arrive (put in group mailbox and taken? I dunno)or they are returned with forwarding order expired. This has happened to people who assure us they have never moved, by the way.

[zanzjan.livejournal.com]

I'm assuming that you tell people as part of the condition that they get a subscriber copy that they be available via email and answer within a certain amount of time (I've always been too broke to contribute myself, alas.) If so, I think with the exception of someone that says "OMG I've been in a coma / kidnapped by guerrillas / up on the space station / trapped at the bottom of an elevator shaft having to subsist off mice and dropped cheetohs for the last six months", six months is a reasonable cut-off. I'd imagine sufficient grovelling might also sway me in someone's favor, but that's me.

[thejunebug.livejournal.com]

Six months, tops. If they didn't make sure that you had a place to ship it to, they didn't pay attention to the emails/postcards/infodumps, then they lost out. I'm sorry, but if someone can't be bothered to reply to an email/postcard/post that says "Give me your address so I can send you something free!" then that's THEIR problem, not yours.

If you do another bowl project, I'd put that in the 'fine print' so to speak. That way you have something to point to.

For these people that you're dealing with right now, I'd say ship it to them if they pay you for the shipping costs.

6 months

[kalilama.livejournal.com]

6 months seems more than reasonable to me.

[drammar.livejournal.com]

6 months, max. Which means for Fledgling, anyone who is now complaining should walk away and be ashamed, and anyone who is complaining about Saltation has a few more weeks at most to stop acting like an idiot.

My only exception would be those people who can convince you that they have been kidnapped by little green aliens and kept away from all forms of communication until now.

cut-off dates

[abwarwick.livejournal.com]

Seems to me the recipients bear some responsibility for keeping track of things: requests for up-to-date addresses, etc.
I think there may be individual reasonable excuses: deployed, mail not forwarded to new address, etc. My own life has been crazy lately, so I see how time can fly by with lots of things left on the 'to-do' pile.
But, both books were mailed out a while back (Fledgling well past 6 months ago), so I would say 'sorry' and move on.
Or ship, if the recipients are willing to pay shipping.

Re: cut-off dates

[cheryl feil (from livejournal.com)]

I agree with @abwarick in comments. 6 months seems reasonable and 1 year very generous. Shipping costs keep rising. I think you're being generous to mail if shipping costs are paid after 10 months or more.

[mizkit.livejournal.com]

I said 12 months each time, but I think that's being *incredibly* generous. 6 seems pretty reasonable.

[joycependle.livejournal.com]

Me too.

[trolleypup.livejournal.com]

Argh! One off order fulfillment for these folks...taking away from your writing.

After 6 months, they send S&H to get a signed copy. After 12 months they are out of luck. Feel free to refer them to me to explain how they not only missed the bus, but now their transfer is expired and they can't get on the next bus either.

Although I'd be happy to paypal them the cash value of the current edition to get them off your backs.

[jane-barfly.livejournal.com]

I checked one year, but honestly, six months is plenty of time, thank you. For Pete's sake, I took the list of "missing subscribers" to a couple of cons, and asked people if they knew any of the missing subscribers.

[dormantdrake.livejournal.com]

I feel that six months is a reasonable amount of time. Unless there's a *very* good reason why they haven't gotten in touch with you...

[mickilmp.livejournal.com]

Personal opinion would be 6 months from the date you shipped the bulk of the BONUS support copies. Unless you feel generous enough to cut a deal.

[phil-boswell.livejournal.com]

If someone who thinks they ought to be entitled to a hardback copy hasn't realised by the time the mass-market paperback arrives, they kind of run out of supporting limbs, so that's my absolute limit. If you're kind enough to carry on until then, that says a lot about how nice you are.

Storybowls

[bookmobiler.livejournal.com]

Speaking solely for myself, I subscribed to both Fledgling and Saltation to support the authors during a difficult period. I certainly had the hope, but no expectation that there would be a real book eventually.

That there were books printed was a pleasant bonus.

Between the ending of the storybowls and the actual printing of the books my email address change. Like any reasonable person I advised the authors of the change, as I would have if I had actually moved.

The people contacting you now are not being reasonable.

I suggest you return their donation, and respectfully remind them the problem was caused by their lapses.

Suggest that if they still want the books they are available at Amazon for less money.

I'd then ban them from every list you have any control over and add them to your junk mail filter.

But then I'm the vindictive type.

Re: Storybowls

[isabellag.livejournal.com]

I think yours is the most sensible and reasonable answer I've read. I'd be setting the dogs on those people, too. Vindictive? Nah.

[alicebentley]

I say that six months after the group mailing is being very generous, especially since mailing books out at all was not really a promise, but a (already very generous) possibility.

I'm sure there will be individual cases where you are moved to send them one anyway, but maintaining (or reclaiming) sanity really depends on that being a very rare and unusual case.

If you feel you're likely to see more of this sort of thing showing up, it might be worth an InfoDump of "Hey guys, it's been six months, here's the list of people we *know* never got a book, this is your last chance to contact us. And if you contributed but didn't get a book, you should let us know that right away too." Once posted, the laggards at least have a notice that they are Out of Time. I was going to write Out of Luck, but ya know, they aren't out of luck at all, because they all got just exactly what they were donating to - the opportunity to help bring this book into existence.

[mardott.livejournal.com]

Sigh.

I do think six months is a reasonable time. I think, as a learning experience, that in future, it would be wise to include such verbiage in your original offer. Personally, I think you went way above the call of duty in your efforts to locate people.

I'm one of those who thought the privilege of reading your work in progress was ample reward for the donation. Sending us a book as well, was simply Way Cool.

All that said, may I gently point out the benefits of Good Will? That is, if you swallow your annoyance and send the slackers their books (perhaps charging for S&H due to the lateness), you will keep them as fans, they'll be eternally grateful, and tell all their friends how wonderful you are.

One hopes, anyway.

[aldebaran8423.livejournal.com]

One last electronic info dump, email, Facebook, Twitter what have you indicating the cutoff date and last ship out date for for both titles is July 31st, 2011. Then notice has been served, reasonable time given to respond to notice. You have one date and one date only to add to your already incredibly busy writing/publishing calendar. Books are held for shipping until you damn well please, meaning they don't get sent out immediately upon receipt of laggard's plea, but when you are good and ready and have enough of them to make a post office trip worth it.

Done and done. In my opinion, people who care about you both, about your health concerns, about your need for time to write New Stuff, will understand the need for a firm--make that FIRM--deadline.

If I may be so bold, how many remaining people/copies are we talking about here?

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

If I may be so bold, how many remaining people/copies are we talking about here?

For Saltation, we've mailed to all but. . .two dozen? (people who have vanished off the face of the earth). However, just because we mailed them, doesn't mean that they arrive. Some of this is, admittedly, the fault of the post office. Some is the fault of housemates picking up the mail and, I dunno, slinging it under the bed. Some is the fault of the person insisting that the book didn't arrive when, err, it did, and has been read, and shelved. Or not shelved, as the house system demands.

Fledgling -- we have maybe a case of books, all Directly Attributable to the kind people who contributed, but didn't want a book, because they saw their donations as funding the project, not buying a book. Every subscriber who had "earned" a thank-you book should have Long Since received theirs.

[aspidites.livejournal.com]

Six months seems a reasonable cut-off to me, unless said subscriber can demonstrate a Very Good Reason why they were unreachable/didn't return emails (such as incarceration in Gitmo, or having been on a black-ops mission, or some such).

Some people (me, for example) might have thought that they were actually paying for a book, but if I had missed out on a very generous deadline, I would suck it up, resolve to be a more responsible correspondent in future, and go buy a copy on my own, perhaps to be signed at a later date.

PS - I hope Steve is doing well!

[(Anonymous)]

Since I'm not signed up for Live Journal and thus can't participate in poll, I'm putting my vote here in comments:

For Ghu's sake, STOP already! It's been ages! We've all had our chances to correct/update addresses so you could send our copies.

Yes, I updated my address when kindly reminded this spring/summer, and promptly received my copy, which was promptly read in following 20 hours upon delivery. That was so incredibly satisfying!

Thank you. Move on with today's challenges. This chapter (remaining books without addresses) is now history and should be CLOSED.

So glad y'all have found yourselves able to overcome this past week's challenges. Hang in there, we love you both!

"Other"

[reedrover]

I do believe that the universe is full of extenuating circumstance. The idea that an intended recipient joined the Peace Corps and was in Africa during ship-out, and Mom&Dad didn't pay attention to package notices is one excuse that I'm willing to accept.

There's a long list of IF and It Depends that I would be suffering, including how generous my mood was at the time that I received the smoke signal saying said book was not there. Really. At this point the mass-markets are available.

On the other hand, I am a Liaden Hardback Book Snob. I was thiiiiiis close to purchasing a replacement hardback of I Dare at some amazing price so that my mother would continue to have a complete set as well after she misplaced one.

So yeah, it's likely that, if I still had a hardback available, I would send it out to the poor slob who suddenly fell back to earth and realized s/he was missing the book. But this is one of those things where it would be at my leisure to 1) verify the original donation, 2) verify that the book did not get delivered and 3) send one out. So it could be months before that book went back out the door again.


... On another angle - if this person is missing Saltation, I still have an extra copy, and am happy to give it up if it will make your life easier in any way.

[stitchwhich.livejournal.com]

6 months is reasonable, a year is more than generous. If you have readers who are complaining, maybe they should consider how often, and how easily they make it to their local post office to mail packages.

[john b. mccarthy (from livejournal.com)]

I'm actually really very, very bad at keeping track of whether I got something I ordered or not (though in this case order wouldn't be the right word). I do know that I'm trying to figure whether I got some Liaden and other books I ordered from Meisha Merlin a couple of years back.
I was never the most organized soul around (though I do have a database with 7000 entries as part of an attempt to keep track of a chunk of my book hoard, ) but things got really bad about 5 years back when my house was flooded by torrential rains. My part of the house ended up with a metre of water in it, and had to be stripped down to bare concrete and studs. A couple of lesser inundations later (the victory of urban sprawl over 1960s storm sewers) and 90% of what I own remains stacked in Rubbermaid boxes. The rumble of diggers and dump-trucks outside is the city's long anticipated attempt to free my neighbourhood of its unwanted seasonal indoor wading pools.
As yet I haven't come across an AWOL Meisha Merlin package but I did find several unopened eBay packages dating as far back as 2007; who knows I may yet stumble across the Ark of the Covenant tucked away in some corner.

[john b. mccarthy (from livejournal.com)]

Oh, I voted for either 1 or 2 years, but I think that after about 6 months, having made reasonable attempts to contact the would-be-recipient, the latter certainly bears enough responsibility in the equation to be asked to cover the shipping expenses.