I'm not a bad girl; I'm just drawn that way

[rolanni]

Over on Dear Author a couple weeks ago, Heather Massey took up the subject of the Extraordinary Heroine, and asks the musical question Is The World Ready? She notes, among other things, that some Urban Fantasy and Romance heroines are introduced as "strong" -- which is to say, The Author Says So -- but then goes on to act in ways that are. . .somewhat less than strong. It's an interesting read, and you should read it; the comment thread meanders somewhat, but, eh -- that's what comment threads do.

Now, I've been thinking about Heather's article, and about some of the comments, and I wonder if it is true that readers would prefer their heroine to be "nice" rather than competent. I'm not a subscriber to the whole Girl Nice Game*, and on the whole I find I prefer people, whether they live in so-called Real Life, or inside a book, to be interesting. If a character is hard-nosed, well, then -- there you have it. She'll act in a hard-nosed fashion, which may not be, particularly, nice or pleasant, but ought, at least if the author is doing her job, interesting and provocative to the reader.

Full disclosure, one of the commentors in the thread brought up the. . .fascinating reader review of Carousel Tides in which Kate is described as "repulsive." Obviously, if I had thought Kate was repulsive, I couldn't have managed having her in my head for a little over a year, but I will agree that she's not nice.

So, discussion question! How do you prefer your heroines? Strong or nice? Is strong vs. nice a false dichotomy? Can a nice girl be strong? Can a strong girl be nice? For more than one date?
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*Girl Nice Game is the game played by militantly sweet females; it has at its core a balance sheet toothier than any Liadens: I'm nice to you, so you HAVE to be nice to me. See "When You're Good to Mama" for clarification of this concept and its workings.

Comments

[aeriedraconia.livejournal.com]

Why does the choice have to be either strong or nice?
I see this kind of heroine a lot where the author mistakes strong and spunky for bitchy and immature. I hate the bitchy heroine, I usually end up hoping she gets killed off. By page 37.
Nice doesn't have to mean that she's a pushover or doormat.

How about strong female character who is also not a snot?

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

How about strong female character who is also not a snot?

OK, can you expand on this. I ask as someone who apparently has an Attitude, and who has been certified as Not Nice, so I do associate being a wisehat with not playing the nice game. And a refusal to play the nice game as a marker for a strong woman -- i.e., she doesn't go along with the rest, even though it's not comfortable.

[aeriedraconia.livejournal.com]

I don't see not going along with the crowd as a 'not nice' behavior. A little snarky is also isn't 'not nice' in my book.
You see, one can stand up for herself and her beliefs with out being a snot. Being independent is not being 'not nice'. Being strong and independent is not being 'not nice', that is an excellent thing.

Deliberately doing something to injure someone else (unless it's war or something) or back-stabbing someone is 'not nice'. Having a constantly snotty attitude is also 'not nice'.

I think it has a lot to do with how a person/character presents their strength and independence. If it is done without the aggressive slap your face kind of attitude it is good but if it is presented wrapped up in a ball of unnecessary abrasive, aggression, well, that's bitchy.

[keristor.livejournal.com]

As far as I can see (disclaimer: I'm a White Male 54 years old) strong/weak and nice/nasty are on different axes. Possibly not quite orthogonal (someone who is strong may have to do some 'nasty' things, but they'll have a good reason for them). And of course very few people are anywhere near the extremes.

Oh, and 'likeable' and 'loveable' are on yet more axes. I hope you're having fun with that n-dimensional viewer...

For instance, you come across to me as strong but not intentionally nasty. That is, if you do get snarky and bitchy then you seem to have good reason for it (like That Other Place where you aren't writing). Theo, also, is (at least by Saltation) strong, and not entirely culturally aware (I rather suspect that she has Aspergers or a related ASD), but again isn't intentionally nasty. Indeed, she avoids confrontations when she can, she's just not very good at avoiding them. Miri, similarly, is spunky and sarcastic and knows what she wants ans intends to get it -- but look how she behaves with people she considers 'family' (including Beautiful). She'll give anyone a dressing-down if they screw up, and she'll be plain about it, and if there's a mission at stake she'll get them out before they can do any more damage, but that's because she cares not despite it.

As for the "Nice Game", I really do not like headgames. That sort of thing is associated, to me, with people who know that they are 'nasty' and want to get away with it in a "passive/aggressive" way. And very often they aren't what I'd call 'strong', they often have an inferiority attitude which they are masking, and are in fact going along with the herd (not a behaviour I consider 'strong') and will switch to the 'winning' side if they get a chance.

So IMO please do keep writing about strong but basically nice people (Kate is allegedly 'repulsive'? I think she's rather attractive, and I'm talking about personality). Male and female (and all other variants).