For whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest I will lodge

[rolanni]

Spent the morning thus far snuggling with Steve and updating various pages on this website (not at the same time).  You should see new content on the Welcome page, the Upcoming in 2013 page and the Publications page.

Which brings me around, not too subtly, to a conversation I had recently with an earnest young thing who wished to express to me a number of  the things that the Liaden Universe® has gotten wrong over the years.  (No, no, I don't know why (some) people feel compelled to do this.  Perhaps so I can do better in future?  Certainly, I can't do better retroactively; the books that were written in the late 1980's remain having been written in the late 1980's.)

In any case, this earnest young person chiefly wished to express that it was Very Wrong of the Liaden Universe® to constantly perpetuate the outdated and harmful notion that women must leave their lives in order to follow their male partners*.

Now, this is an interesting observation, but I'm not sure how or why it's a constant Wrong in terms of the structure of the Liaden Universe®.  I understand that my auditor believes that the continuing cultural insistence in the US that women put aside their lives, interests and careers in order to serve man and raise children is potentially harmful, to the woman and to society at large.  I even agree with her.  But, in terms of the Liadenverse, this is what I see:

Past this line there are potential spoilers for Liaden Universe® novels.  If you haven't read the novels, you might consider stopping here.

Miri Robertson left her life as a hunted woman in order to follow Val Con yos'Phelium and become even more hunted.  When we meet her, Miri's one biggest concern is staying alive.  She's cashed out of the mercs; her legit job went badly sour and she doesn't really seem to have any plans or aspirations aside from living to eat breakfast tomorrow morning.

Priscilla Mendoza had been cast out from her religion, her family, and her ship by the time she met Shan yos'Galan.  Her decision to relocate on Liad has much to do with the feeling that one must live somewhere, and that she wanted to be near her new, and true, friends.  At the end of Conflict of Honors, it's not at all decided that they will prosper in a partnership, though later it appears, yes, as if things have worked out for them.

When first we meet Aelliana Caylon -- indeed, within the first two dozen pages of Scout's Progress -- she has independently made the determination that, if she wishes to survive to pursue her art, she must leave her clan.  The rest of Progress and all of Mouse and Dragon is  the story of how she does that, and the compromises she makes -- and forces Daav yos'Phelium to make -- in order to arrive at a life that is acceptable to her.

I will allow that Anne Davis could easily have returned to University and taken up her former life.  Without her child, certainly.  And I do blame Daav for manipulating her in order to keep his brother and his brother's heir on Liad.  But I do also recall that Er Thom had booked passage on a spaceliner for all three of them and had steeled himself to follow her.

I don't believe that Natesa the Assassin has left her employ as a Juntavas Judge, despite having cast her lot in with Pat Rin yos'Phelium.  Her initial decision to accompany him was, in my mind, professionally motivated.

Cantra yos'Phelium's life was falling apart when she met Jela, but far from following him, she spends the first book trying to ditch him; then realizes that maybe he has an idea or two, after all, and if she wants to survive, which she does. . .

Anthora yos'Galan, of course, simply acquires Ren Zel, poor man, for which we may -- and do -- blame the Tree.

Kamele Waitley does leave the Wall in order to live in her onagrata's establishment, something she apparently takes herself to task for during the course of their relationship, so it doesn't sit easy with her.  She then mounts a rescue mission, meaning to bring the father of her daughter out of what she thinks is a wrongful imprisonment so that he can continue his life.

Theo. . .to the best of my knowledge, Theo isn't following anybody anywhere. . .

So, what I'm saying is that, as one of the fond authors, I'm not seeing in the Liadenverse the mindless casting aside of a woman's whole life "for love."  I'm seeing women who have real problems, and their problems are in part mitigated by association with a man of Korval, whereupon they are empowered to be themselves more fully.

Perhaps that was the young person's problem?  That the women are in trouble and the men fix it?  I suppose we could have been even more forward-thinking, there in 1984, and made certain that the "current" mature members of Korval were more female than male, and then had the folks in trouble be male.

But, yanno?  We didn't.  And what is written is written; and everything that is based on what has been written must build on that past logically and consistently.  Also, we don't believe in ret-conning**.  That means -- we (us and you) are stuck with it.

So -- that's my rant on the topic.  Who has thoughts?

______________

*Before anyone's head explodes, this was actually a relief.  The last earnest reader who wanted to engage me in this vein wished to open my eyes to the way in which our stories put real women into real danger by perpetuating the dangerous, mind-controlling myth of True Love. I was, as I understood it, to consider myself a murderer.

**ret-con = retroactive continuity changes (as often seen in comics and occasionally in movies)

Comments

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

Well in the current generation of Korval women we have Theo rather handily pulling Win Ton out of the fire (at least so far), and we still have Nova on hand to help any random Dude in Distress. Had events eventuated slightly differently in Necessity's Child we might well have seen Nova take up with Rys, much to his benefit. I was in fact waiting and wondering how you'd bring that about given Korval's well-known propensity for rescuing strays. Oh well, there's always another book in which to tell the story of how Nova rescued her man.

[starushkaa.livejournal.com]

I think that you should pay no attention to all those people who are stuck on politically correct things to the point that they are unable to appreciate a fine plot. By the way I (your faithful translator into Russian) deplore the hitch that has somehow stopped the publishers to go on with your excellent books... But I still follow your work with pleasure

Complaints we don't GET!

[bookmobiler.livejournal.com]

No author is perfect.
That follows from the fact no reader is perfect.
If you really don't like something about a book, go and write one of your own.
Just remember points one and two above.
Then wait for complaints about what you wrote.
Also remember that you're not allowed to play in another author's sandbox without permission.

[martianmooncrab.livejournal.com]

I have always found the female characters in your books to be strong, idependent and resourceful, if anyone should get blamed for the events, it should be The Tree.

The Author writes, the Reader reads.

I once had a conversation with Terry Pratchett about his book Hogfather, which I love, but what bothered me was that he had cross polinated his mythos in the storyline, and when I had a chance to chat with him about it, I had already realized that the Author can write what they damn well pleased. He also informed me of that fact. *grin* He was pleased that I agreed with him, and then signed my book.

comments

[nocal-kathyf.livejournal.com]

I've always thought you and Steve were well ahead of the curve in having well developed strong male AND female characters in your stories. I also like the fact that they tend to support one another, not usurping the other person's wills or desires (except for Ren Zel perhaps, but he and Anthora are a great match!). In any case, the young reader cared about your writing, and will probably grow in wisdom and grace in the future.

[meara (from livejournal.com)]

This... is odd. As the sort of young person who occasionally feels outraged about the Portrayal of Women In Media, and particularly in sci-fi/fantasy/romance, I have to say I am actually fairly puzzled that the Liaden Universe of all things would elicit this reaction. (I just had a long discussion with a friend about gender roles, etc on Pern, so I do understand the impulse.)

If anything, I consider the Liaden Universe to be majority female-dominated; most of the societies we encounter that aren't strictly egalitarian are matriarchal (Sintia, Delgado, Zhena Trelu's planet, that planet where Shan takes Priscilla trading, the planet where Daav got his earring, etc). The original dramliz (during Cantra's time) were all female--only Lute and Rool were even allowed to have personalities.

As far as particular characters/relationships go, I think Val Con gives up more for Miri, at least initially--at the beginning of Agent of Change, his life is going just fine, except for the whole he's a sad killing machine with no feelings thing. He actually abandons his duty to his job and his family to be with her. Those things eventually catch up with them, but I don't think she sacrificed any more to be with him than he did for her. And I really think that's generally true for all your couples.

There is perhaps a teeny bit of a case to be made for the argument that some of your female characters need to be "rescued" by their male partners, but I think the men tend to be rescued back just as much. Daav is rescued from emotional isolation twice, first by Aelliana and then by Kamele. Pat Rin is dependent on Natesa for protection. Ren Zel gets a family again because of Anthora. And Val Con might save Miri from the Juntavas, but Miri pretty much saves his soul, so I think she still wins in the rescuing department.

But even aside from all that, as you say, you write what you write, and not every story or relationship needs to be a huge statement about society. Sometimes characters, and people, just want to do what they do, and their gender shouldn't dictate their choices either way. It is entirely possible to be a strong, powerful, feminist woman who rationally chooses to make sacrifices for her partner, just as it should be that a strong, powerful, masculine man can rationally make sacrifices for his.

And you know, I still love Anne McCaffrey's stories, even if I have a whole laundry list of issues about how Pernese society runs itself. But Pernese society, despite its weird feudal castes and female oppression and strange non-consensual sexual mores, does make sense within its history, even if it's not "nice" like I might wish. And it's not Pern's job, it's not fiction's job, to be a Utopia. It's just supposed to be a good story.

-Meara

[attilathepbnun.livejournal.com]

That's .... odd of her ....
Of course, if you're a murderer, I suppose that makes Agatha Christie a serial killer *shakes head*

[ebartley.livejournal.com]

One partner abandoning his or her life to be with the other is an inevitable outgrowth of telling romance stories set in a society where the extended family is the basic unit of society. The fact that it's been the women abandoning their lives to be with the men (save for Ren Zel, and Ren Zel & Anthora aren't major characters in the series as a whole) is because up till Theo, the Korval half of the pairs portrayed for major chunks of the book have been male. If Theo lifemates, I strongly suspect her partner will join her, not the other way around. (Which might conceivably be the impetus for her joining Korval-as-clan, since that would let Win Ton escape his, which seems to be much less congenital.)

I think the young lady's insistence on seeing the books through a feminist lens set in modern era (not even a feminist lens set when the books were written) rather sad.

[kk1raven.livejournal.com]

I see your female characters as strong women, or at least as women who eventually become strong, who make choices for themselves and happen to fall in love along the way. People do tend to do that. I find the notion that they're leaving their lives to follow the men to be a big mind boggling.

[thewol.livejournal.com]

"Theo. . .to the best of my knowledge, Theo isn't following anybody anywhere. . ."

Nope, but she's leading quite a parade! LOL!

As for these armchair feminists (versus the ones who are out in the real world actually doing something constructive about the very real gender inequities in the world and who are actively working for change), oh, puh-leeze! If it was me, I would politely but firmly suggest that if they are so keen to brandish their feminist agenda, rather than nit pick a work of fiction, a more constructive use of their time might be to volunteer in a shelter for battered women and children, or work with a rape crisis team/center, or work with organizations who help runaway girls caught up in a life of drug abuse and prostitution.

Agree with everyone Else

[libertariansold.livejournal.com]

Although I personally would love to see more about some earlier generations of Korval delms, many of whom were women.

She needs to read the books!

[gareth griffiths (from livejournal.com)]

I rather think your earnest young reader had a skewed lens. As I recall it Miri takes great pains to reminder her partner that he isn't there to protect her but they are a partnership and it will damn well work as a partnership or not at all. I recall some very sarcastic remarks when Val Con overstepped the line threatening to be an over-protective male. I think she is a great example.

That said it is YOUR universe so write what you please! You write characters we care about - that's (part of) what makes the books so good. Keep doing it!

[mbarker.livejournal.com]

“I think,” he said slowly as she took the disk from his hand, “that there is little purpose to thinking things like ‘the Liadens,’ ‘the Clutch,’ ‘the humans,’ or even ‘the Yxtrang.’ I think the best way to think—and talk—is in particulars: ‘Val Con,’ ‘Miri,’ ‘Edger.’ If you need to think bigger because some things take more people, it might be wise to think ‘Erob,’ ‘Korval,’ ‘Middle River’—a group small enough that you can still name the individuals; a group small enough that you can, in time, know the individuals, the parts of the Clan. Where is the threat in ‘Handler,’ ‘Edger,’ ‘Terrence’?”

There's some wisdom in there, which I think might apply to generalizing about women and men and all that... individuals instead of abstractions.

[drammar.livejournal.com]

+1
Mike has nailed it, yet again.

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

A counterpoint might be if one looks at the background culture, rather than the main characters. In contract marriages, doesn't the woman always go to the man's household until a child or children have been produced? Even in the case of a female delm, doesn't she go to someone else's household and temporarily surrender her status as delm?

The characters you've listed are notable. Notable people are, by definition, doing things that are unusual.

However, these things said, I have two points.

One, that peaceful and equitable times rarely if ever make for good stories, and I think the Liaden stories are excellent. Thank you for sharing them.

Two, Liad is supposed to be an alien culture, it's not supposed to fit our world perfectly or to be our ideal world, and I for one don't want it to. I want to explore how someone else lives, and have some exotic to go with some familiarity. I want to see through someone else's eyes.

If this earnest young thing wants to see something she's comfortable with, she's literate enough to read so she's presumably literate enough to write ( ability in storycrafting being an entirely different matter), and she is just as free to create her own worlds are you are.

[welhar.livejournal.com]

Shan was away on a contract marriage. I forget which book that is in.

Strong Female Characters Abound

[catherine ives (from livejournal.com)]

I've always thought all the female characters are very strong. Request: could we please find Nova a lifemate? Everyone else in the family has one. She's totally intimidating though. So it might be hard. As for Theo...I'm routing for Win Ton.

I'm happy that after all these years you can still be found snuggling with Steve. Owhhhhh.........

Re: Strong Female Characters Abound

[libertata.livejournal.com]

Personally, I would prefer that Nova not find a lifemate. I would never call you guys murderers (seriously, WTF??) for perpetuating the idea of the One True Love, but I do think that not everyone has to have one. Nova is awesome, and I think her differences from her siblings/cousins makes her a good balance to the others, to the clan's benefit.

But then, I am also of the opinion that it strains credibility for practically everyone to have dramliza powers. I know Korval is an exceptional clan, and that is why these stories are happening to them, but still. That being said, I adore the series, and consider it a sign of a great series that it generates strong opinions in the readership!