Let's talk about heroism

[rolanni]

This post potentially contains spoilers for Liaden Universe® novels: Mouse and Dragon, Fledgling, Saltation, Ghost Ship. . .I think that's it, but there may be more.  Probably best not to read the following unless you've read most-if-not-all of the Liaden novels.

Spoiler space.

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Possibly the most maligned figure in the Liaden Universe® is Daav yos'Phelium, deadbeat dad, slacker, and false kinsman, whose existence is entirely and only in service of his own pleasure.

For those with foggy memories: Before Val Con takes up the Ring, his father, Daav, is delm of Korval; a position he finds burdensome (see "Who wants it least will do it best").  It can be argued that he's not a very good delm of Korval, but he's certainly far from the worst.

He becomes a far better delm once he has lifemated with Aelliana Caylon, and has access to her support, advice, and unique view of Balance and society.  With her connivance, he is able to fulfill some of his personal goals, and avoid being consumed by the delm's melant'i.

During his brief marriage, in fact, he becomes very much reconciled to the necessity of standing Korval.  By the time we're nearing the end of Mouse and Dragon, he's actually quite content with his life, clan-bound though it is.

Tragedy then strikes:  His lifemate is gruesomely killed before his eyes, having made and acted upon the split-second decision to literally take the bullet that was meant for him.

In other parts of the universe, it has been made clear that there is a set, or possibly more than one set, of Very Bad People out there and they are specifically gunning for, as it appears, Daav.  The possibility exists that this/these set/sets of VBP are gunning for Korval as a group -- in fact, it is later revealed that they are -- but at the point when Aelliana is murdered, this question is up in the air.

A third attempt on Daav's life (this after Aelliana's death) seems to pretty positively pinpoint a Terran group as the single set of VBP, and that they are after Daav.

Daav, with input from Er Thom and Anne -- for he did not decide on this plan on the spur of the moment, or all by himself -- and with the necessity of Balancing Aelliana's death in the manner Aelliana would wish it Balanced, decides that he can perhaps reduce the danger to others of the clan by removing himself from the field.  In order to make his exile from clan and kin productive, he will pursue Aelliana's Balance, which is, yes, a very long-sighted, subtle and essentially non-heroic Balance.

I point out at this juncture that, to a Liaden, to be clanless is to be dead.  Daav, having been a Scout, has some counter-conditioning to this cultural imperative, but even as a Scout, he had been the head of a team, the members of which he treats with as extended family.  Further, except that people are shooting at him and by that tendency endangering the people he loves and is responsible for, he is not burdened by his family; his family is what kept him from committing suicide in the immediate aftermath of Aelliana's death.

Everybody with me so far?

OK.  I'll try to wrap the rest of this up quickly.  Oh, and in case I didn't say, there is textual evidence for all these wild claims being made by the author; though you (Universal You) may have to read closely and think a little.

So! Decision taken, Daav leaves the clan, fakes his suicide and emerges as his alter-ego, in pursuit of Aelliana's Balance.  It is his intention to dedicate himself to this Balance, making the Balance his life.  Becoming, in essence, a Balance-monk, where nothing that does not directly serve the Balance is permitted to distract him.

Aelliana, as we know, scotches that business.  She knows that Daav needs "clan" and she provides "clan" so that he can function, and live as full a life as possible, given the very great losses in his immediate past.

Which is how Jen Sar Kiladi comes to take a mistress (or, to be taken by a mistress) with whom he eventually has a child, and has a comfortable, even pleasant life while pursuing Aelliana's Balance as she wished it to be pursued.

Now we come 'round to it; the heroism thing, that some folks want to talk about.

We are not here talking about the folks who think that Daav "abdicated" his authority so he could have a "pleasant life."

Nor the folks who think that Daav "abandoned" his son into the care of unfeeling, abusive strangers.

But the folks who think that Daav's self-exile from clan and kin in pursuit of Balance is not heroism.  Who think that it's A WASTE.

Which is to say -- his choices are unheroic and self-serving; built purely on selfish foundations.

Apparently, the only way one may be a hero is to go out, lasers blasting, and kill the bastids.  Or figure out a way to take all their money.  Expose them to public ridicule.  To Make Them Pay Right Now.

Making them pay (much) later is not heroic; it's. . .lazy at best and reprehensible at worst.  A hero's only coin is immediate gratification.

Clearly, I reject that.  I see Daav as a hero -- and a particularly tragic hero at that.  He leaves everything he wanted and cared about.  That he comes to have a liveable life does not negate his losses or his sacrifices.  He does not have "everything" he wants (see, "I want my father back, you son of a bitch," for more on this concept); he would have been far, far happier had his lifemate never been murdered.  He would have been far happier if murderous people didn't make a decision to leave his support structure and his son seem not only rational, but the only good decision available to him.

The fact that he has a life after surviving tragedy does not make him despicable; it makes him human. The fact that his Balance is a long one does not make him a self-serving wimp.

Heroism comes in many shapes and sizes.

I rest my case.

Comments?

Counter-opinions?  Note that I'm looking for closely reasoned counter-opinions, not knee-jerk reactions, based on current US "mainstream" cultural mores.

#SFWAPro

Comments

[kalimeg.livejournal.com]

OK, so Daav did not abandon the field.

I have read all the books -- oh yes, more than once. He comes back into the main fray at Erob...but his time as Professor Kiladi does not seem to be spent actively pursuing balance for Aelliana. He helps Kamele with the documents problem; he trains his daughter Theo indirectly; I do not see these things as contributing to Balance, unless Aelli was all about having and training a girl child. Indeed, on Delgado NOTHING about that was really in his control. I do not find text evidence for Balance until he is called back and rejoins the clan at Erob, and then goes on to Surebleak.

If I have missed some evidence, you might tell me where.

:)

[sb-moof.livejournal.com]

Darn it. Just lost my long comment. I'm not iPad typing all of that again. The evidence that it is balance is in Mouse and Dragon.

For the good of the clan.

[bookmobiler.livejournal.com]

I agree with your argument. Heroes are often not Rambo types. Case in point: The first responders at the Boston Marathon.
It is clear that Korval deliberately mislead Liadens outside the clan, but the clan was aware of and approved of Daav's motivation. Balance is after all a personal matter.
The thrust of Daav and Aelliana's Balance was teaching people to understand each other through "Cultural Genetics." This is a goal with no finite end. The quiet courage needed to pursue such a goal practically defines heroism.
I'm afraid I don't at the moment remember in which book I read it , but in one book Anthora is asked about the welfare of the members of the clan and becomes aware of one more than expected. I think that extra was Daav/Aelliana but probably not Theo since she had not been seen yet.
As a final argument for Daav's heroism. Who else would walk up to the Tree and promise to personally cut it down if ever harassed a pilot again.

Re: For the good of the clan.

[bookmobiler.livejournal.com]

I meant to add that the Tree was apparently aware of Daav and Aelliana's continued existence.It showed its approval with those two seed pods.

[a-c-fiorucci.livejournal.com]

People really think that? About Daav?? That he's a selfish, bad person? Wow.
It had literally never occurred to me that you could read his character that way.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Honest, I don't make this stuff up. Some people seem to discount the. . .effect of having had your wife assassinated in front of you. The fact that he would have engineered that so he could retire from being Korval. . .I don't think that I that bad a writer, but apparently there's a disconnect somewhere, because more than one reader believes this.

[cailleuch.livejournal.com]

I agree. It would not be heroic if Daav went "all guns blasting on evil dudes" particularly with Aelliana residing in his brain. Because of his situation whatever he did had to be agreed upon by Aelliana and she wouldn't agree to more violence as balance. Vigilantism is not heroic!

When Daav leaves Delgado to join the fight at Nev'Lorn, he is seen as heroic. I think this is because the balance/fight is not personal vengeance.

I must say that I will be interest to see what changes Uncle has in store for Daav. We see him in one scene in Necessity's Child but it is a short walk on only.

[otterb.livejournal.com]

I also agree that Daav is acting in heroic fashion. He makes the best choices he can for Korval, since that is his duty as delm, even when those choices don't suit his preferences - see his turning down Aelliana's invitation to partner her off-world. Not knowing yet about the Department of the Interior, he thinks that ignorance killed Aelliana, and therefore he sets out to reduce the amount of ignorance in the galaxy.

But then Daav has been one of my very favorite characters since I first read Mouse and Dragon.

[otterb.livejournal.com]

Correcting myself - one of my very favorite characters since Scout's Progress.

[magda-vogelsang.livejournal.com]

Daav is one of my favorite characters in the series, and my understanding of him is very much as you have said. At first I believed that his grief for and need to balance Aelli's death (in a surprisingly constructive fashion of which she would have approved) was what drove him to leave his family, and while I understood it, I also found it tragic for both his sake and Val Con's. I was even less inclined to judge his actions harshly when I read Mouse and Dragon, and realized that he had believed himself to be the specific target of the assassins, and that he was drawing danger to his family by staying.

And yes, it is clear that it was Aelli who persuaded him that he (or rather Kiladi) still had a right to a life with people to care for. Nonetheless, when it became evident that his son was in danger, he dropped everything (including his balance) to discover what was going on, and what he could do to help.

For the love of Clan and knowledge

[dmellieon.livejournal.com]

Daav a child abandoning wastrel? 0.o?
Okay... Deep Breath.
I've been a faithful lurker for the past several months but I just had to make the time to come to the defense of my favorite character.

His Balance is Knowledge via "Cultrual Genetics". Getting people to understand the beginnings of their culture in relationship to other cultures is his weapon of revenge. Killing the mindless prejudice that was the force behind the killing of Aelliana is his life goal. This is in "Mouse and Dragon".

Could he have kept in contact with his family after faking his death? Sure, but what would have happened if just one pin beam or note left in a dropbox had been intercepted? Or one misspoken word by a child overheard? Then leaving the family would have been for nought.

In my eyes he is a hero not a perfect one -who is? - but a real hero. Quietly working towards his goal far from home and all he had known and loved. Finding love again, with a nudge from Aelliana, and raising a child in a different culture. Then supporting and taking pride in that child when she left all that she had grown up with (just as he did). Not flinching from Necessity when called back to being Daav, killing when he had to and facing his family and his new position within the clan. All of this without turning to drugs, alcoholism or other crazed escapism behaviors. That to me makes him a hero.
I do wish he had at least left a note for Kamele as Prof. Kiladi when he had to return to being Daav. I do wonder how he will react when Kamele catches up with him - provided he survives...

Re: For the love of Clan and knowledge

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

I do wish he had at least left a note for Kamele as Prof. Kiladi when he had to return to being Daav.

Yes, but what would he have said?

"My very dearest Kamele, our life together has been a lie and a cheat; the man you loved and trusted is a figment, a phantom. A joke. Also, my lifemate has been living in my head and actively taking part in the relationship since before its beginning.

"Necessity now demands my presence elsewhere. I leave you everything accumulated by the man who does not exist, and the shame of having our relationship terminated by the lesser partner.

"Please believe that I treasure our shared past, and will always care for you.

Jen Sar Kiladi"

[malkingrey.livejournal.com]

I'm still boggled by the idea that there are readers out there who consider Daav to be a "deadbeat dad, slacker, and false kinsman, whose existence is entirely and only in service of his own pleasure."

(Honestly -- have these people read the same books I was reading?)

Which is a roundabout way of saying that you're not going to get much in the way of reasoned counterargument from me, because I agree with you.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

(Honestly -- have these people read the same books I was reading?)

I know; it's like: I wrote down these particular words, in this particular order for a reason, you know.

But, yes. There are people who apparently believe that nothing can excuse a father's setting aside his child, and that anyone who does so is a "deadbeat dad" and worthy only of scorn.

I'm pretty sure that people who are cultural absolutists shouldn't be reading the Liaden books; it can't be good for them...

I vote Daav is a hero

[ext-2097101.livejournal.com (from livejournal.com)]

Why Daav had to leave.

Daav chose to support Anne's research by releasing info from Korval's diaries that provided evidence of the common roots of Liadens, Terrans and Yxtrang. He sent this anonymously to Terra but somebody figures out that it came from him (DOI?)

After Aelliana dies in his stead, Clonak tells Daav that the assassain was sent by the Terran Party to kill him. He has a bounty on his head. He is now demonstrably a clear and present danger to his family, because the assassins won't stop coming until he's dead and they don't care about collateral damage.

Why does the Terran Party want him dead? Because they despise any hint that there is a connection between Terrans, Liadens and Yxtrang. So do Liadens but there response is to give the cut direct to Anne at a party. Balance is a double edged sword on Liad and Korval's blade is very sharp.

So all Daav knows is that Aelliana is dead, saving him. The threat is targeted only at him but if he's anywhere near his family they are also in danger. The threat is due to cultural bigotry primarily based on ignorance and the only real solution is a really long term goal of reducing bigotry by reducing ignorance about cultural difference.

After all, Aelliana would not have approved Korval declaring war on Terrans. A - a lot of non-responsible people would have died, B - it would only reinforce the bigotry which caused the problem in the first place.

Balance and keeping his family safe required Daav to give his son into the loving care of his best friend and twin brother. He didn't abandon him to mean strangers. Anne taught him to play music. Shan willingly shared his mother. His son was still in the care of the clan. To a Liaden your clan is your life. In a very real sense, Daav gave up his life, walked away from everything that he still had left after Aelliana's death - in order to save everything that he loved.

To me Daav is a quiet hero. The kind of hero that doesn't get a medal, or a parade - not even a pat on the back. They just do what has to be done and they personally pay whatever price is required.

Re: I vote Daav is a hero

[ext-2097101.livejournal.com (from livejournal.com)]

Now to argue the other side - given the trail of bread crumbs for why Daav had to leave.

If others think Daav's choice was a waste, what actions/response would they have had him make? And can they justify their choices within the current realm of Daav's culture and character developed by the authors? I'd be interested in seeing a counter proposal.

Personally I think the authors painted poor Daav into a corner and left him only one real escape route. As one of my other favorite authors has described her plotting process, "First I devise the character, then I ask myself what is the worst thing I can do to this person? Now let's see what happens."

Daav was adrift as Delm, cut off from his life as a scout. Er Thom had Anne and Daav was a little jealous. He was desperate for a child, someone he could love and share his life with. So you give him both Aelliana to love and a child and then take one a way and put the other in danger.... what else was poor Daav to do?

I was happy that Daav eventually got Kamele and Theo. He still has Theo. And I'm waiting to find out how you deal with the Daav, Aelliana and Kamele trio!

I know putting characters into these situations is what drives story. But since you create such real characters, I end up feeling their pain. Standing on the sidelines alternating cheering for them and crying with them. Thanks!

[mbarker.livejournal.com]

There was a recent TV segment about a Japanese woman living in Peru (it's part of a series where they chase down various Japanese living in odd parts of the world). This particular woman is in her 60s, if I remember correctly. And she is living in the worst part of the slums, accessibly only by walking quite a distance.

Anyway, they asked what she was doing there. She looked into the camera and said, "They killed my husband 10 years ago." Apparently she was referring to the local gangs and such. Well, but what are you doing here, you could go back to Japan, your family and friends would be happy to take you in?

"I am teaching the women to knit." It turned out that she has built up a group which knits leg warmers, sweaters, other fashionable goods. They use alpaca wool, and their products are sold in Japan and America. She goes to the wholesalers and gets the wool, she teaches them to knit, she designs and teaches her designs for the articles -- and she is slowly turning that little corner of the slums into a productive piece of society.

When I saw that and heard her explanation of what she is doing there, I thought of Daav and his Balance.

Daav had no choice

[ext-1743106.livejournal.com (from livejournal.com)]

I agree with what most people here said, especially the "are these people reading the same books I'm reading??" bits.

Aelliana died even though Daav was targeted. Despite the fact that she died, the people hunting Daav didn't quit--they tried to kill him again. Knowing that one beloved family member died in his stead, Daav could not, in good conscience, stay on Liad. He risked too many lives, endangered too many of those he held dear. First his lifemate--who would take the next bullet for the delm? Er Thom? Anne? Val Con? Which unlucky family member would be with him the next time the assassins struck? Which family member would feel obligated to die so the delm wouldn't, preserving clan and other kin? No delm worthy of the title would subject the clan to that potential harm.

So Daav had to leave. The problem was what to do when he did so--wage war with Terra? No, that wouldn't do--Aelliana wouldn't want that. But! Since ignorance caused Aelliana's death, Daav could wage war with ignorance. In this way, Aelliana's death would be avenged, however slowly, and Daav would simultaneously protect his family and create Balance.

When viewed like this, the reader sees that Daav did not abandon Val Con; he did what any loving, caring father would do and he protected his son, no matter the personal cost to him. Daav would have been infinitely more selfish had he stayed behind, with everything and everyone he held near and dear, and endangered his clan.

Again, I ask, are these people reading the same books I am???

[pedanther]

The way you describe Daav in this post is precisely as I have always understood him from reading the novels, and I was astonished by the idea that his actions could be seen as selfish and unheroic.

[muirecan.livejournal.com]

I've always liked Daav he is one of my favorite characters. And as we learned about him I always saw him as a hero.

It is a revelation to me that some people don't think of him that way.

[pc1739.livejournal.com]

The only problem I've ever had with Daav is that he sent Theo out in the universe so obviously unprepared to deal with Liadens and herself, and her a Dragon Child. His choice to raise her as Terran but it seems a lot of people mistake her for Liaden because "she board-casts on two levels". Despite that, he is a good father.

I actually have issues with both Theo and Uncle :).

The "dead beat Dad" may come from sympathy with child Val Con's pain i.e. my mother's dead and my father's gone.

[gilraen2.livejournal.com]

I think that Daav gave Theo far, far more that he "owed" her. She was NOT his child - she was Kamele's child. You need to remember that Liadan's don't have parents - they have a -single- parent and belong only to the Clan to which they were adjudicated by the contract of the contract marriage that produced them. Kamele didn't ask Daav about being the father of her child - it was not culturally appropriate for her to do so - nor did she want, expect, or need any paternal assistance in raising that child. Theo was HER child, and Daav was merely Theo's mother's lover (not a real relationship by their cultural standards). The fact that Daav DID indeed influence Theo's life, interfere with the culture enough to keep her from being drugged and brain damaged, and form a lasting and loving relationship with her are all things that can be applauded as above and beyond the call of duty. Her relationship with Daav does assist her in dealing with herself and with other cultures when she steps outside her own cultural imperative.

You can look at Shan in the same way. When Er Thom found Anne the second time and found that she had a child, he was prepared for the child to be HERS. But when he found that Shan bore his name (not Shan Davis but Shan yos'Galen) everything turned around. In Anne's culture children took the father's last name. In Shan's culture, children took the name of the Clan to which they belonged - either mother's or father's but never both. Now there are some cultural conflicts there, and one's that are very difficult for Anne to deal with when she is a (relatively) poor Terran academic among enormously rich and powerful Liadans, but with some thought one can understand the cultural perspective on who a child belongs to - father, mother, or both together.

Is There a Third Choice?

[libertariansold.livejournal.com]

Because I have seen him as neither hero nor poltroon. He makes a choice (going off to teach CG) that he feels would best achieve Balance-- isn't that what Liadens do? He makes hard decisions (abandoning Val Con, abandoning Kamele) involving sacrifice for the good of the clan-- isn't that what Delms do? He accepts a dangerous mission because his Delm tells him to (pod 78)-- isn't that what Liadens do?
Can a case at least be made that he is, at least morally, weak or cowardly? Maybe:
-- he tries to convince Chi to make Er Thom Delm in future so he would be able to not have to deal with non-Scout
-- he abandons Kamele without facing her and providing an explanation
-- he does not join in the fighting at Nev'lan (sic) until he receives authorization, regardless of the need
On the other hand:
--He confronts his elder regularly, including taking Pat Rin from her, and refuses to buy her help by returning her to him
-- He accepts facing an intruder at Leafy Place, and goes alone to confront the the manipulator s at Delgado, even while questioning whether he is physically capable of doing such things anymore
He goes alone to Low Port twice seeking the pilot stealers (although it is true that the first time was at the order of the Delm)
He is willing to bring a Terran into the clan, despite what he knows will be problems with many Liadens.
He places himself in the position of greatest danger at the Erob clan house when the Xtrang are going to be presented to Miri.

I do not care much for him as a character, but would not agree with a portrayal of him as overly week, or selfish, or narcissistic, or cowardly. At the same time, I see nothing especially heroic about him--just a good scout doing his duty.

Re: Is There a Third Choice?

[margotinez.livejournal.com]

-- he does not join in the fighting at Nev'lan (sic) until he receives authorization, regardless of the need
I read the fight sequence at Nev'lorn as Daav's very canny delaying actions until he can target and power up his weapons, NOT as a wait for authorization. He's holding off the DOI from blasting him immediately. He's also finding out the status of the Scout base camp. As soon as he acquired his target and power reached dull red ready status, he blasted away.

Agree

[chaddaï fouché (from livejournal.com)]

I can't but agree with the many posters that express their surprise that Daav could ever be seen in such a light... Disagree with his mean of Balance (which is to reduce ignorance of the other civilizations and thus promote tolerance) maybe, though I find it an admirable and well thought-out Balance, but to ignore his suffering to see him as an hedonist of the worst kind ?!

Not a hero! What rubbish

[gareth griffiths (from livejournal.com)]

I would place the argument that going out all guns blazing to settle a personal debt would be the opposite of a hero and be the,most selfish thing to do.

Setting out to undermine the philosophy behind the attacks and establish the common origin etc seems to be both far subtler and heroic. I've never read Daav as other than honourable and sometimes struggling with his responsibility - the best leader may well be the one who doesn't want to do it but has the capability to.

He's one of my favourite characters - can't wait to see how his time with Uncle turns out...

If some readers don't appreciate the subtlety of your plots that's their loss. Let them read the cardboard characters of simplistic guns blazing - I'd much rather have your proper characters who we can empathise with.

[lornastutz.livejournal.com]

I can only surmise that people who think Daav is not a hero also feel that knowledge has no
value and has no effect on people and society.

[cgbookcat1.livejournal.com]

One of my favorite aspects of Daav is his ability to construct an additional personality and live in it for years. It's not the same as (earlier in life) being Daav one moment and Delm Korval the next -- I see it as a toned-down version of Cantra's multiple-personality capability. Val Con has clearly inherited this too. Daav and Val Con can switch at will, and Cantra could not.

The above comments that discuss Daav, Aelliana, and Kamele as a love triangle don't quite ring true to me, because it's really Daav/Aelliana and Jen Sar/Kamele. Daav's sorrow over having "lost" his Jen Sar personality may arise from having to do something (abruptly leave Delgado) completely incompatible from the Jen Sar mindset.

I have always seen Daav in the heroic category, and I think there are major life events ahead for him in the next 5 books.

[herefox.livejournal.com]

I think it's a bit more complex regarding Daav/Kamele/Aelliana because the read I always got was that Aellliana was always invested in that relationship as well...more so than Daav at the onset even! So while you're right that Jen Sar/Kamele is where the pairing is I think Aelliana is still a part of it, even if Kamele is unaware.

[pgranzeau.livejournal.com]

I see Daav as you do, I guess. I don't really understand Liadens, although they are great fun to read about.

But the "deadbeat dad" business doesn't really seem correct. He left his son in the care of his Clan, in the first place, and at the time he left Delgado, his daughter was already firmly in pursuit of her own career, once it had turned out that her calling was to be a Pilot.

I thought he could have left something for Kamele, but she proved herself much more resourceful than the academic life she was leading might have indicated.

What I read

[rnjtolch.livejournal.com]

I know that it was the Terran Party that was directly involved in the attempt to assassinate Daav and killed Aelli instead. But the way I read it was that they were put on the trail by "whispers" from someone else: the DoI. Clearly, Daav was aware of the DoI (or at least of some entity that was stealing pilots) and Clonak's response to Val Con's outrage at his being "given" to the DoI proves that the Scouts knew about them, so presumably Daav had at least some inkling that they existed and had been making mischief at the Port and elsewhere.

Given that and the fact that he thought he was losing his marbles after his Lifemate was killed, his decision to seek Balance without having to fight off attempts on his life, and in a manner that was as his Lifemate would have it, stands as a both thoughtful and brave. It does take some guts to walk away from a fight and still plan to win it later.

Later, on Delgado, when he thought that something important was happening and that he might be needed, he went. Another difficult decision he made with reluctance (to leave the life he had? who'd do that?) but once in he was totally in. So when Miri said "Go" he never thought twice, he planned, gathered his ally (such as Uncle was) and he went at great peril. Not a coward. No, no, no.

[kay-gmd.livejournal.com]

While I imagine in general the Daav type heroes sell fewer books I think they are the truer heroes.

There are times when it is necessary to take direct action for balance, but far more often the more indirect approach is much more effective for key philosophies.

[welhar.livejournal.com]

At the time Aelliana died, Daav had to remove himself from the Delm of Korval because it was not certain that he would survive, much less be mentally fit to be Delm. But I always wondered if he ever meant to be away so long on his Balance. I thought the arrival of Theo changed his plans. I don't believe the yos Pheliums gave up children to other clans very often and even if she was socially a Waitley, Theo needed protection. I think Daav stuck by the kid who needed him more. Was he a hero? Well, he certainly had the courage to make the hard decisions whether everyone agreed with him or not.
Wendy

[thewol.livejournal.com]

In re: Daav "abandoning his child" -- the institutionalized "abandonment" of a child by one of its parents is ingrained in Liaden culture. When a child is born of a contract marriage, the contract sets out which clan/parent gets full, total, legal custody of the child and which parent will essentially "abandon" all legal and parental rights to the child. The law on Liad is that children legally and morally belong, not to the parents, but to the clan. This is deeply, deeply ingrained in the culture. All Liaden children except those of life-mated parents are routinely "abandoned" by one of their parents as a matter of contract and it is common for such children to be raised (fostered) in a household their "retaining" parent is not part of, if the clan so decides. In Korval, the child of a pilot is fosterd to a "non-piloting" family, one that is going to stay put and "be there" for the child. Children have the potential to grow up with little or no contact with either of their parents. Daav would not see leaving Val Con in custody of the clan as anything necessarily bad or morally reprehensible. Had Daav not been Delm, but simply a pilot or crew member on one of Korval's trade ships, he would have left Val Con with other clan members anyway as he went off with the ship in service of the clan. This is a common scenario, and in such a scenario, he might have had little or no contact with Val Con for years at a time. Obviously, those who tar Daav with the brush of "bad parent" don't "get" the culture.

Again, Delgado is another culture (matriarchy) with institutionalized "single parenthood." The child belongs to the mother. It was Kamele's choice, not Daav's, to live with Daav. It was Kamele's choice to have a child by him. She could have shown him the door, and legally, and morally, he would have had to leave and sever all contact with her and Theo if she wished it. Theo was a child of that culture.

How is Daav's reinventing himself and taking on a new persona and life different from being put in the witness protection program? Or from being a spy being on a mission that requires deep cover? The spy does his mission (get revenge) until he is recalled.

This "going out in a blaze of glory" business has a name: "Suicide by adversary" -- you may take some of the bastids with you, but you still die, and you don't really accomplish much by doing it. This is the "charge of the Light Brigade, Over the Top, Men" military mentality (which makes me wonder about those "anti-Daav" types). You've satisfied your moral sense by "getting some of the bastids" and it looks all heroic to "sacrifice" yourself so you can take some of them with you, but it's the easy way out. It's a whole lot easier than making a tactical withdrawal to sit back and figure out who your enemy really is, and how best to do the most, and the most lasting, damage to your enemy. (Which is what the DOI is doing, too.) The "heroic" option to me, is the most morally reprehensible option that Daav had.

[thewol.livejournal.com]

Here's the rest of my post, which LJ said exceeded my limit. (pthpthpthpthpth to LJ)
Daav didn't set himself up on Delgado with the intention of turning his back on his past, starting a new life, finding a new woman and taking the soft way out. He was plotting and implementing a subtle, far-reaching, plot to strike the ground right out from under his enemies. -- An uphill battle, I'll grant you. As Daav realized, the real enemy here is prejudice. When has prejudice ever been swayed by the facts? The only way you can fight prejudice is one mind at a time. The way you win those minds is through education.

What we "get" from books is perforce filtered through our own life experiences. We interpret what we read in terms of what we know. We tend to relate to characters we can understand and emphathize with, ones who are like us in some way. (Which again makes me wonder about the life experiences and personalities of those people who view Daav in a negative light)

And then there's what Lincoln said about pleasing all of the people all of the time....

And anyway, this is your (plural) story and you've told it the way you told it for your own reasons. It's an interesting character study of a very complex man who is technically the product of two cultures -- Liad and Scouts -- who made his life choices according to his own lights. So somebody doesn't like his choices? So what? So somebody thinks they would have done things differently? So what? Too bad, so sad. It's not their story. It's yours, and Daav's. I personally like Daav. He's perhaps my most favorites of your characters (Jury is still out, as you're still writing Liaden stories that I haven't read yet.) He's real, multi-dimensional, sympathetic and complex.

As for those who are down on Daav, chacun à son goût. They are entitled to their own opinion. We are entitled to disagree with it.