In which the author continues to goof off

[rolanni]

So, yesterday was various errands, including the Getting of the Flu Shots, and tomorrow there are more errands.  Today, I believe there is cleaning, including post-writing disaster control of my office.  Which, to be fair, is Slightly Less Awful than it Often Is in terms of Sheer Volume.  On the other paw, I can't just sweep stacks of paper into trash bags, either, because there are Large Swaths of at least one other book interleaved with the pages that finally came to make up Dragon in Exile.

Speaking of Dragon in Exile, or at least, speaking of Val Con and Miri, who are more-or-less major actors in the novel, something went past my eyeballs a while ago, regarding characterization in the Liaden Universe®. The assertion of the writer was that while the authors get positive points for writing strong female characters, those points are crushed under the number of  negative points the authors get for pairing said strong, intelligent females with a male characters who are even stronger and smarter.

It probably goes without saying -- but I'll say it anyway -- that I don't see it that way.  Speaking specifically of Miri  and Val Con, what I see is two smart, capable people who have had vastly different lives, and who therefore have different strengths, and weaknesses, who happen to complement each other.

As a question of craft, I've always felt that it's a cheat to demonstrate that one's female character is strong and intelligent by deliberately pairing her with a weak or venal, less-intelligent male.  Just as it's a cheat to demonstrate that your hero is strong, smart, and morally upstanding by pairing him with Pretty Maggie Moneyeyes.

Also, just personally, I wonder why a strong, smart character of any gender you like would partner with a dummy (OK; maybe in terms of muscle or money).  But, generally, in terms of survival, wouldn't you want the smartest, strongest, most sympatico person you could get for your partner?

So, anyhow, that's what I think.  What do you think?

Comments

[kalimeg.livejournal.com]

As a strong, smart female character, picking anything but the strongest, smartest male is a divorce waiting to happen. Really.

[kk1raven.livejournal.com]

Strength in characters is not a zero-sum game. Having a strong male character does not make the female character any less strong. Possibly the reverse. If the female character pairs up with a weak male character for no good reason, that might make me think less of her. A strong character should be choosing a partner who shows strength of some sort. Not pairing up is fine with me too, but pairing up with an inferior partner who seems to exist just to make the first character look good really doesn't work for me, regardless of the genders involved.

[reedrover]

I appreciate the idea that, the stronger the character, the stronger the contrasting/complementary character(s) must be to keep the story in balance. What I look for in a partnership - especially one built over decades of writing - is both the complementary interests and the contrasting strengths. Here's just what's on the top of my head:

Miri and Val Con are both dangerous individuals. Over the course of the books, we come to understand that Miri is a troop leader while Val Con is more of an individual operative. Val Con has more experience translating foreign cultures and manipulating personal interaction. Miri has more experience recognizing when strategy calls for her/them to throw a physical point to win a match. She also has a... unique perspective... on externally-caused mental alterations and how to combat them.

Priscilla and Sean are both magical individuals. They also came from extremely different backgrounds. When pressed, Priscilla withdraws into the formality of her training while Sean projects personality. (What's the quote? Sean's manners are appalling but his manner is pleasing? Something like that.) Sean learned the art of extroverted personal interaction while Priscilla learned the art of projections of power. While they are both pilots of note, Sean is given the edge in both major spacecraft and the art of war (admittedly through Lute's magic). Priscilla is the stronger magician on a universal scale. Priscilla can use astral projection to leave mental packages for pickup. She can also sense personal intent left on objects.

Aelliana and Daav... appears less balanced at the onset, and then an even tighter pair once their weaknesses and strengths are matched up properly. I consider endurance to be an incredible strength, and multi-space mathematics to be akin to magic, especially when the survival of your ship depends on it. Certainly, Daav has more world experience. He also suffers from impatience. Aelliana has depths of patience, a vast intellectual hunger, and curiosity that makes things new again for Daav.

[doccolt.livejournal.com]

Actually wasn't it Miri who left a mental package for pickup by Pricilla. I must reread the first four books again I think.

[reedrover]

You are correct. Miri left the package and Priscilla brought it back to share with Shan. (Priscilla did leave the signature slip.). Thanks for the correction!

[gareth griffiths (from livejournal.com)]

I see it your way. The (lifemate) pair is definitely more than the sum of the parts and each has strengths and weaknesses.

[bandicoot.livejournal.com]

I snorted at the unnamed writers assertion ;p I like the way you've taken complex individuals and paired them so well. They all fit together in their pairs like very complicated 4 dimensional dovetails, making in their pairness an entity even more ... I was trying to find the right word, but I think I'll end that with "more". I love the way complexity intertwines in all their pairings. It's your characters that hooked me and keep me coming back. The plots are frosting.

NOW GET BACK TO WORK! (...ahem...) ;p

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

No, no. First we rest the brains. The brains have earned and more than earned some down time.

*Then* we get back to work.

[bandicoot.livejournal.com]

How's the house hunting going? Hope you get it nailed down soon before the cold settles in.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

House hunting is going pretty well; we now have several to choose from. Trouble is, we can't choose until somebody makes a serious offer on our house.

*twiddles thumbs*

Couples

[ireneha.livejournal.com]

Miri & Val Con: Separately they are very fierce people. ... Together they are "Hell on Wheels"

As for all of the other couples, with and without the tree interferring: All are smart, all learn from experience, and all find a way to work together.

So keep doing what you are doing as you write. And I'll keep doing what I've been doing... Reading everything that you write... multiple times.

[charlie russel (from livejournal.com)]

I think the writer got it wrong, full stop. Strong characters naturally pair with each other. That you have strong female characters is very much a plus and one of the (many) things I enjoy about your books. The idea that somehow strong females should be paired with weak males? Why would that make any sense at all? Furthermore, I don't see Val Con as stronger than Miri. Different strengths that complement each other.

If there is one area that I think your Liaden books are missing in characterization, it is the complete and total lack of gay characters. And I realize that having started down that path roughly 30 years ago, it would be difficult to introduce them now. (Which, btw, is why I'm glad to see that being addressed in Archer's Beach, at least. )

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the most we could get away with was bisexuality, which got us the famous "housewives in Iowa" lecture from our editor, including what I believe is my second-most favorite-ever sentence uttered to us by an editor -- right behind Stephe Pagel's "I'll take them! ALL of them!" -- which was, "It was my understanding that writers want to sell books."

It's a different place, the past.

[martianmooncrab.livejournal.com]

intelligent conversation is a definate plus. Yeah the hot alpha stud is all good for a long weekend, but, geez, whats left to talk about after you compare tattoos?

[wynnsfolly.livejournal.com]

I feel sorry for people who live in sad limited zero-sum universes.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

1. But I'm not upset. I am interested in how people read what I've written -- which is a writer's valid concern, after all. Sometimes, as in this case, when it seems to me that someone has read Something Entirely Else from what I've written, I'll ask for a reality check.

2. Uh. No. Not so much. Really.

3. I'm not even sure of that -- I mean the jealousy, not your belief in it. A lot of bloggers and reviewers really do call 'em like they see 'em. As (1) above, I'm sometimes bemused by what they say they see...

gender is not an issue in your universe

*cheers*

[otterb.livejournal.com]

Re strong female characters, I have seen the kind of thing the reviewer complains of, where a strong female character is outweighed by an even stronger male character, because, hey, apparently you have to have a Real Man(TM) to keep one of those uppity women under control or who knows what might happen. But I don't see it in your books. As others have said, you pair characters whose strengths complement each other.

[nocal-kathyf.livejournal.com]

I think your characters are strong and well balanced in their relationships. I'm wondering if the writer felt there was an economic imbalance? In that case there was an equal imbalance in Anthora's lifemate who had lost his clan entirely.
I love your writing, and your characters, plots, and worlds. Rest now (I loved Shan's educubes with the "TIme to rest and play" note - sorry if the quote isn't exactly right). Then write when you can and we'll be here to read. Thank you!

[catherine ives (from livejournal.com)]

I would never have made that criticism. I've always seen the female characters as extremely strong. As for the gayness issue...you've got to write what you've got to write..It seems like with the Liadens gayness is just not an issue. One of my favorite short stories is "This House" where there is a gay character. No one seems to have objected to that.

This House is a lovely story but...

[Ани Хачатрян (from livejournal.com)]

... personally, it gave me the buggy idea that "only straight couples can be natural lifemates, homo is just for fun" (well, one wonders whether Fen Ris and Endele were natural lifemates - but from the description of how their passion started, I think they were). It probably makes sense in Liaden Universe, since any in-clan marriage always includes natural childbirth - but still... I think homosexual lifemates and how they'd deal with having an heir would be an interesting topic.
Yay for Theo, though, who never has choice problems here. :3

Re: This House is a lovely story but...

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Well, I can't be held responsible for other people's buggy ideas; I have enough to do, managing my own.

With regard to "This House". . .

I think Fen Ris' explanation of Endele's sudden and overriding importance in his life, taken with "When I did not court her before?" gives us a pretty good clue that they are natural lifemates. It also seems fairly clear, to me, at least, that Fen Ris is bisexual -- that his love for Mil Ton was quite real and not "just for fun." If he'd just been having a "gay fling" so to speak, I don't think he'd have been quite as torn up -- or as bewildered -- as he obviously is, according to Mil Ton's reporting of the break-up scene. (Mil Ton is, let us recall, an empath, and he does not doubt that Fen Ris is drawn to the woman; he never says that he doubts Fen Ris' love for himself, or that he comes to realize that he's been the object of a heartless game. So I think we have to believe Mil Ton, too: He and Fen Ris were in love and then this. . .entirely unlooked-for thing happened, and Fen Ris was compelled to leave the couple).

We do have the question of Mil Ton's sexuality, which is never directly settled -- is he gay? Is he bisexual? I lean toward bisexual since, in the end, when Endele asks if he will come to them when he is settled back in the city, he accepts that as a possibility. It could, naturally, be that the three of them will be friends, without becoming lovers, or they may find a whole new strength and freedom as a threesome. I don't actually know. The story that we were telling had to do with learning how to "truly love," and how we find the strength to do so, when love is so rarely kind, and ended before Endele leaves Mil Ton's house.


When planning the Liaden Universe, we made the decision to have a pansexual universe, though I'm not sure either one of us had the word at the time. We did have "bisexual," though, and it worked for what we wanted just fine. It's true that we don't do a lot of pointing and shouting about it -- for one thing, we started writing the Liaden Universe in 1984. Agent of Change was published in February 1988 and Conflict of Honors was published in July 1988. And, as I said above, to Charlie, we had a long and very interesting conversation with our editor about Conflict of Honors, who demanded that we pull a scene between Priscilla and Lina that she swore would offend that well-known hot-bed of science fiction readers, "housewives in Iowa," under threat of not publishing the book. It was a minor, minor scene, and Steve (I was too mad to see at that point) was able to meet editorial demand by omitting one line and "drawing a graceful curtain". When we found another publisher for the book, years later, we put the scene back, with our editor's blessing.

Times change. . .

Re: This House is a lovely story but...

[Ани Хачатрян (from livejournal.com)]

Well, I'm not a blogger or a reviewer - just a mere translator, but that was just my personal opinion which included a certain emotional expression. I've never asked anyone to be responsible for it or for you and Steve to "write your books my way". I apologize if my bluntness has offended the author.

That's funny, though, Fen Ris must've surely found a natural lifemate given the sudden flare of passion and marriage, but at times it seemed to me he just got crazily in love for one or another reason. That's because all of your lifemates, outside of Anthora and Ren Zel who are extremely gifted dramliz, take quite a lot of time to understand and welcome their special bond.

And speaking of special bonds, aren't lifematings, like one of the Yxtrangi Explorers said, "exclusively for two people"? Can one still be romantically and/or sexually attracted to smb outside the relationship? By saying that "homo is for fun" I didn't mean Fen Ris' feelings weren't serious - I meant that natural lifematings are still exclusive for straight couples (since lifemating seems to be "a whole more important sort of love") - see the first passage though.

Ah, I compared an old translation of Conflict of Honors to the "original" (second edition?), and was also left annoyed that the Priscilla and Lina scene was cropped. I thought it was the USSR mad censorship though.

On a completely unrelated note: can one know how old is Theo in Standard years by the end of Dragon Ship?

mirrors, complement, supplement, etc.

[furballtiger.livejournal.com]

some folks simply see (notice) what they expect to see. That said, while I agree Miri is tough in some ways, in an operational sense (during tactical crises, etc) imho Val Con seems to "wear the pants" in that pair. Yes, he is devoted to and defers to Miri at times, but when it's "real time" (and a lot of other times) she acts very junior to him. But! I'd argue the reverse is true for other couples of yours and that reflects the real diversity in couple's dynamics. When push comes to shove I see both Anthora and Priscilla as the (slightly) more dominant member of their pairs...if anything (and there are exceptions) the relationship pattern I see is Korval tending to lead and others to follow, not a generalized gender bias. And then there's Theo! Adult Theo isn't subordinate to anyone or anything; the idea would probably puzzle her slightly.
And you raised another question; why would anyone pick a dummy? your character's relationships reflect equality, competence, respect, etc. I like it...but that's not the only model in use in reality. At the risk (certainty) of being politically incorrect, lots of persons of one gender seem to view their mates as (partially) domesticated barn animals; handy for bed sport, heavy lifting, killing spiders, etc. Others have much more symmetric dynamics, some are asymmetric but complementary, etc. The idea that there's one right kind of relationship is, I think, hidden in much of this thread, and it's a pretty hard thesis to support. And the claim that your books systematically bias against strong females is truly absurd, in my view. YMMV. Worry less, write more, have fun! :)