Slow Saturday

[rolanni]

So, I slept in a little bit this morning; Trooper assisting by sleeping on my face, which gives you some idea of how very, very asleep I was.

Spent some parts of the morning trying to locate my set of Steve's car keys, which I lost sometime during being ill, when I needed to move the cars for the plowman.  All the pockets in the house are clean, as is the couch, my bag, Steve's bag, the cars, the driveway, the kitchen table (my keys, which I would have used at the same time, and for the same purpose, are on the kitchen table, right where they belong), the Mencken Table, my desk, and the catch-all drawer in my office -- all, all are keyless.  I'm going to have to admit defeat at this point.

After I combed Trooper and Sprite, I gave the rest of the day over to totaling/closing the 2014 accounts (I still have two that need last bits of information before I can close them), since our accountant was kind enough to make sure the accounting packet reached us on Christmas Eve.

In a moment or two, I'm going to go do the dishes, and then retire to the sofa with When Gods Die to keep me company.

Before I sign off of the interwebs for the evening, though, I'm going to revisit something, because it still. . .fascinates me.

WARNING:  POSSIBLE SPOILERS BELOW IF YOU HAVEN'T READ "THE NIGHT DON'T SEEM SO LONELY"

S
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Back a few weeks ago, when a portion of the internet went stupid because I had used a Bad Word in "The night don't seem so lonely," someone involved in that conversation took advantage of it to critique the story, in order to show me how (1) I could have completely avoided using Bad Words and (2) written a stronger story that they would have liked better.  (Yes, this is exactly as breathtakingly rude as it sounds, but never mind that.)

The person in question would have improved the story by throwing away the first scenes in the story-as-published, opening with Moss on the beach, alluding to his adventures on the road, and his reason for being there, in very brief one-or-two sentence flashbacks, and finishing with an epiphany of  destiny.  Which...OK, that's a story; it's not the story I wanted to write, but let that go, too, because there's an even more interesting assertion in the reason for restructuring the story in this manner, which was this:

The opening scenes, sayeth the critique-person, risk losing readers who may decide that they don't want to read about these characters.  By opening with the scene on the beach, readers *immediately know* that Moss isn't "just some drifter" but a person they should care about.

This notion of "risking" the loss of readers fascinates me, but, then, I tend to assume that readers are reading for character, rather than plot.  In the case of Moss, I began the story where I did so that the reader could get a brief taste of what his reality had been for the last while, and to maximize the punch of relief for the reader when someone, finally, takes an honest interest, while at the same time feeding the uncertainty -- is this really going to work out, then?  So much has gone wrong for this kid. . .

And back around I come to this idea that you will lose readers if you force them to interact with characters.  What a strange, strange notion.

So -- what grabs you in a story, and forces you to keep reading?  Character? Dialog?  Plot?  Setting?  Bad Words?

Discuss.

Comments

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

I'm going to venture to guess that said reader took homophobic exception to certain things your character was forced to do in order to survive in a hostile environment. If that's the case, you can afford to lose readers like that, because their minds are too closed to be welcoming to the ideas of SF/Fantasy anyway.

I may be an exception, but every element you mention keeps me reading. I want to find out what happens.

[starrcat.livejournal.com]

Good writing and good characterization (which doesn't necessarily mean that the character is good.)

Plot holes don't bother me as much if I have that though I hate when a character is made to do something stupid so that the plot can advance.

And once I know and like an author, I will pretty much read anything they write.

I loved Moss and feel that the introduction was essential to his character. If that is going to lose a reader, the reader probably isn't going to like much that you write.

[bandicoot.livejournal.com]

What grabs me in a story and forces me to keep reading? Yes - all of the above. But it's the scent of good writing that brings it all together. Good writing alone - a way with words and the forming of interesting sentences - can grab me, even if it seems like it isn't or might not be going somewhere. Because if the writing itself is good, there's a good chance that where it's going will be a good read.

When I first started with Carpe Diem, I'd also started with Asaro's Skolian series. You guys put together fascinating sentences and dialog, and I had to have more. More, more, more! I lost interest in the setting, characters, and writing, and never finished her series ...

I'd keep a scrapbook of critiques like that just to read when I was down and needed a good laugh ;)

And keys - I have 2 vehicles and have a tendency to leave things like keys in unpredictable places. So I have 4 sets of keys (actually I also have a key hidden under each vehicle which I only had to use once) - one set for each vehicle, one set for all vehicles on my main going-out keyring, and one set for all vehicles on my working-around-the-house keyring. It's rare I'm locked out of a vehicle after having provided all those keys, but, as mentioned above, it did happen once, at 2 am in Parachute, CO when I locked both sets of keys in the truck at a gas station when I went in to pay for the gas. Even knowing where that hidden key was, it still took me half an hour to tease it out where I could actually grasp it. But I did get it, unlocked the truck and all was saved!

As a wise someone once told me, "Redundancy, redundancy, redundancy!" ;)

[catherine kelleher (from livejournal.com)]

Parachute Colorado! It's a mere 40 minutes down 1-70 from me. If you ever get locked out of your car on the Western Slope of Colorado just let me know......I have a kid with mad car door opening skills.

[bandicoot.livejournal.com]

Thanks - I hope I never have to do that again. Especially at 2 am. At least it wasn't cold or raining. I've since learned not to leave my keys on the seat during road trips as well - I keep them in my pockets where they belong ;p

what grabs you in a story

[bookmobiler.livejournal.com]

Honestly, Character? Dialog? Plot? Setting? Bad Words? have all done it at one time or another. OK, maybe not bad words very often. On stage sex almost never. (I confess to a fault as a reader. I tend to page past such scenes.)
It is very difficult to enjoy a story if the character is not believable.
In truth I think being believable covers all the bases here.
A writers failure in any one of those categories is likely to kick a reader out of a story.
A really good writer can grab and keep a reader with any of them.
The bad news is that not all readers are going to be believers.

[otterb.livejournal.com]

At this point in my reading life what grabs me seems to be a character or characters that I'd like to spend some time with, plus a situation that seems at least moderately interesting. The character doesn't have to be "nice" but they need to not be a jerk. Because I invest in the characters, I also dislike prologues that set the stage from x years ago, or mysteries that open with a viewpoint character who is about to be murdered, or suspense that spends more than a very little time in the villain's head as they are planning their next nefarious step. Not a hard-and-fast rule, of course - there are good books that do all those things, for good reasons - but at this point they're just not what I want to read.

I used to be a sucker for particular plot or plot/character tropes, but that seems to have become less true; there have been too many books that sound like something I expect to like but then I don't.

[muirecan.livejournal.com]

I liked the short story. It had well developed characters.

Perhaps you need to take a large frozen swordfish and repeatedly poke them with it.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

Perhaps you need to take a large frozen swordfish and repeatedly poke them with it.

All I need do is remember their name.

[reedrover]

I like characters, especially ones that are so well-developed that they can have conflicts of cultures. I don't need someone to be wrong, either. Cordelia (Shards of Honor) and Priscilla (Conflict of Honors) are two of my favorite fully-formed characters stuck in problems where their partners in resolution have completely different sets of skills, experiences, and assumptions.

[xinef.livejournal.com]

Combination of character and plot. The author has to make me want to know what happens next to the character. If I truly dislike a character, the plot had better be darn interesting to make me want to keep reading. Dialog and setting have to fit the characters and plot, but are less important on their own.

Everything, with less emphasis on bad words

[aska-kettlingur.livejournal.com]

Being a prudish old maid, I am not a big fan of bad words or overdone sex scenes. However, sometimes they are integral to the plot or the character development, and as such I acknowledge them, tip my hat, and then let them pass by so I can enjoy the characters, plot, dialog, etc. What does bother me is when a writer seems to think that obscenity and gratuitous sex make up for poor plotting and lack of character development. They remind me of my 3-year old grand-nephew running around the house shouting, "Butt, butt, BUTT"--intended to shock, and in need of some immediate and stern correction. Luckily, I don't have that problem with you guys. What is needful is there, no more, no less, and the entire book or story is crafted well. Thank you.

Unbelievable

[isabellag1926.livejournal.com]

I can't get over the arrogance of some people. Admittedly I might have commented on aspects I liked or didn't like about the story (loved it, btw), but I would never have the hubris to suggest to an author that their story might benefit from alterations of mine!!

Keys

[ireneha.livejournal.com]

Look under the stove. [That was what flashed into my head when you located your own keys.] I have heard that cats can use a set of keys for cat hockey.

Re: Keys

[star-horse3.livejournal.com]

I laughed when I saw your comment, because my immediate thought was "Ask the cats."

[orojasee2.livejournal.com]

(http://lelucoon.net/women?anketa=2260) Хочу найти опытного взрослого мужчину, который сумеет приласкать мою киску и одновременно целовать грудь. Это самое большое наслаждение, которое я когда-нибудь испытывала. А ещё я очень люблю подолгу делать минет до бурного извержения. Читать далее (http://lelucoon.net/women?anketa=2260)

[gareth griffiths (from livejournal.com)]

Character, I need to car about characters, then plot has to be interesting and believable. Characters have t be fully formed. Gratuitous sex or violence I dislike (note that gratuitous to me implies not necessary to the story). I have to say I found the 'education' in Trade Secret to be one of the best scenes I've ready for a long time. Having diverse characters who are all credible is important

Don't like long info-dumps, things have to hang together and be believable. Can be strange but need to be consistent and believable.

I had no problem with the introduction. Nothing gratuitous but set the character up very well - I do need something to grab me in the first chapter or even a great opening line like 'The person who was not...'

[drammar.livejournal.com]

All of the above -- with a healthy emphasis on characterization (which seems necessary in order to get to know a character). Bad words don't necessarily draw me in but the never toss me out, especially when they are relevant to the story, as was the case in "The Night Don't Seem so Lonely."

As an aside, I just got my copy of Carousel Seas from the ever-reliable Mr. Blyly. It was inhaled at one sitting, stopping only for stirring the soup and other necessities. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and thank you for it.

The arrogance...

[charlie russel (from livejournal.com)]

What a boor. I think most of the reasons I read a story are covered above, but really, you'll only lose me if there is repeated, gratuitous, lovingly described, detailed and graphic:
1) Rape
2) torture
3) child molestation.
None of which are ever going to be in your stories, so I think we can safely assume I'll buy and read pretty much whatever you write. I certainly read for plot (all the characterization in the world won't help if there isn't at least some plot movement), but I primarily get drawn in by the characters and their situation.

In this story, I absolutely agree that starting where you did was an important part of the story's effectiveness. And as for the bad word? Oh, please, folks. Just get over yourself.

[kk1raven.livejournal.com]

I think you wrote a good story. If that person wanted a different story, he/she is free to right a different story, one with no bad words or unpleasant ideas, or anything else unwanted.

Character and plot are the two things that are most likely to grab me at the beginning of a story. Dialog and setting have been to do so too, but not as often. Bad words don't grab me but I don't object to them being used in ways that are appropriate to the story. Too often they're used gratuitously and that can turn me off pretty quick. I don't think you've ever been guilty of that.

[margotinez.livejournal.com]

I am reminded of reading the first sentence of one of Ken Follett’s books: “The last camel died at noon.” I put down the book and paused to reflect that I would never be a writer. I was not the only one grabbed by this opening, as some time thereafter Elizabeth Peters/Barbara Michaels used that line as the title of one of her books. That said, action is fine but characterization is vital, and all of it falls apart without good writing. I particularly appreciate your notes on the Crystal Dualogy, to the effect that you and Steve could not have written this 20 years ago, you needed to mature as writers first.
As far as the missing keys, I recall that Sprite had a nocturnal adventure spilling stuff off the table. Have you checked the farflung reaches of the floor, in case said keys were tossed aside and slid under something? Just a thought.

[margotinez.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. My 91 year old aunt-the-nun read and thoroughly enjoyed the story. She has enough sense to read words in context. And she loves all your works.

[mbarker.livejournal.com]

Character, dialogue, plot, setting, bad words... I think these are some of the building blocks of story, but when it's pulled apart like that, when you're looking at these building blocks at that level, it's really hard to see what makes a story interesting and keeps us reading. What's the definition of a story? A character tries to achieve a worthwhile goal against opposition in an interesting place? Something like that. But I don't think just a character, a plot, or a setting typically does it without the rest of the parts.

I've had epic fantasies that were recommended to me where after I had read 100 or so pages, I stopped because the main character wasn't very interesting and didn't have anything that they seemed to be trying to achieve. My friend assured me that the magic system and the world building were really cool, but... I just don't get excited about setting very much. Anyway, for me, show me someone trying to achieve something, trying...

As to why we keep reading. I think some of it's a desire for meaning, for a world that makes sense, for wonder and beauty. Books and stories can do that. Instead of the daily grind of semi-meaningless random events, we get to see a sequence tied together by the main characters driving towards their goal.

So I guess for me, I would say the hook is someone trying to achieve something. The thing that keeps me reading is the promise that there is going to be a resolution, poetic justice, a climax where good wins and evil gets punished.

On the keys...

[mbarker.livejournal.com]

Have you checked the cars? I know when we have been juggling cars, sometimes the keys get confused and end up outside in one or the other car.

[filkferengi]

No ideas about key locations, but an enthusiastic recommendation for the Emerald Rose song "Fairies Stole My Keys", here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJRg5wVJgVM